Wizard's River-horses

[Wacho]

Can Wizard's River-horses cancel an attack if your wizard controls an ally?

Spell. Wizard only. All Nazgul events are discarded or cancels an attack against a Wizard if he is the only character in the company. Wizard makes a corruption check modified by -2.

[Zarathustra]

Well, considering the fact that allies are considered characters for the purposes of combat, I'd say you cannot use River-Horses to cancel an attack if you have an ally.

Make sense?

[Bandobras Took]

But if you play River Horses in response to a creature attack, can't it cancel it before the allies become characters?

It seems similar to the way that Ready to His Will cancels an Assassin before it gets extra strikes from Rank Upon Rank.

Do allies become characters on declaration of a hazard creature attack or on its resolution?

(Forgive me if my terminology is poor. I'm still fuzzy on timing and condition rules).

Cards I mentioned roughly quoted:
Ready to His Will - Cancel a hazard with one strike/attack
Assassin - Men. Three attacks of one strike each
Rank Upon Rank - Man attacks receive +1 prowess and strike.

[stone troll]

Hey, no fair, I wanted to post that response but my IE went boom right as I was sending!

I agree with the previous post, when does combat begin-declaring an attack or the resolution of the attack (combat) ?

[Zarathustra]

That's a very good question.

Here's my (unreflective) response:

River-Horses is not played in response to the declaration of the attack. Rather, it is played after the attack exists. This is a general point about canceling attacks: you can only do so after they exist as attacks in the first place. Cancelling is not = to fizzling.

With this in mind, I think it becomes evident that the ally counts as a character at the time when you would want to cancel the attack: the company is now facing an attack (though the strike sequence has not begun yet).

In most cases, I take it, it's clear whether you're in combat or not, and so it's clear when your ally counts as a character (and only for that specific purpose). Interestingly, I think one result of the explanation I've just given is that after the declaration of an attack and before the strike sequence you can do such things as tapping Adunaphel to tap an ally, since the ally is a character for the purpose of combat, and tapped status affects combat. Cool, eh?

[Jaded]

MELE rulebook:

1.

Combat normally occurs when one of three things happen:
When a creature hazard is played on a company.
When a company at a site with an automatic-attack decides to attempt to play a resource card for that site (i.e., decides to enter the site).
When any other card indicates that a company must face an attack.

2.

Combat: The resolution of an attack. This involves strikes being assigned and strike sequences being performed. Combat specifically encompasses the time from the resolution of an attack action until the final strike sequence is completed. During combat, no attack may be actively declared.

As you can see there are at least two not similiar definitions. I think the second makes more sense.

[Bandobras Took]

Actually, the keyword in the first quoted rule would be "normally." This suggests that certain things can interrupt the process.

And just to make sure I've understood things with Ready to His WIll:

1) The attack resolves and is created.
2) Rank Upon Rank tries to kick in.
3) Ready to His Will can be played in response to the passive condition of Rank Upon Rank.
4) Since the attack exists, Ready to His Will can target it and gets in before Rank Upon Rank applies.

Is that how it works?

[Jaded]

Yes.

[Gwaihir]

[Just found this thread while wondering about them River-horses myself.]

As you can see there are at least two not similiar definitions. I think the second makes more sense.

As master Took indicates as well: looks like the first is a rough description only, as normally hints and it isn't even of what combat actually means, but rather of when it occurs. The 2nd one - taken from the glossary I guess? - is indeed the definition and settles this matter nicely.

[Moria tour guide]

So,

an ally is assigned a strike when the company faces an attack that gives a strike to each character in the company?

Thanks,

[Konrad Klar]

Yes. Unless certain ally may not be attacked (e.g. Goldberry), or may not be attacked by some types of attack (e.g. Quickbeam may not be attacked by attack keyed to site or automaic attack).

[melkor_morgoth75]

So can i use wizard's river horses on a wizard travelling alone with goldberry, for example?

mm75

[|Highwayman|]

i think not
although Goldberry cannot be attacked she still counts as a character in combat - she can support other characters; so if other rule out the possibility of playing Wizard's River Horses on comp of Wizard and an ally - then it's any ally, even one that can't fight himself/herself

[Konrad Klar]

For purposes of combat Goldberry is treated as character that cannot be assigned to strike. So no.