Card Memory (Re: Eagle Mounts, Quiet Lands and Mount Doom)

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Zarathustra
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Card Memory (Re: Eagle Mounts, Quiet Lands and Mount Doom)

Post by Zarathustra » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:51 pm

Mod Note: Updated title to specifically reflect discussion at hand. (Jamie, 12 May 06)

Short events often last till the end of the turn, if they don't specify how long they last.  For example, if I use Praise to Elbereth in my org phase, I can keep tapping people to use it for my whole turn.  That much we know.

But what I'm interested in is whether cards that have short-event-effects on them can leave the table and come back with those effects still in place.  Here's an example of what I mean.

In a discussion in the decks forum, we talked a bit about this in relation to teleporting to Mt Doom with EagleMounts.  Highwayman asked:
ok, how does the fly to mount doom trick work
i've seen it once - with Gates of Morning and Quiet Lands but i'm not sure if it's leagal

i mean, you can't play Quiet Lands on Mount Doom when it's not in play, and you can't fly to Moount Doom cuz it's a Shadow Hold

so in my opinioin one should already have Mount Doom in play (by haveing some kind of company there) to be able to change it to Ruins so then Eagles can fly you there - i understand that you can't reveal a Shadow hold or dark hold as a site you're going to when flying, and you can't play Quiet Lands on a not-yet-revealed site....

so how does it work?
Librarian responded:
I've plopped an agent at Mt Doom (usually My Precious) and then use Withdrawn to Mordor on him after changing the site to a R/L with Quiet Lands.
To which I responded:
Interesting.....
And highwayman responded:
Um question.

You can't goto Mt. Doom because it is in play for an agent.

So would you have to play quiet lands, then withdrawn to mordor put in back into your site deck and then go there? The 2nd question would be, is Mt. Doom still a R&L when it returns to your site deck?
Travis then brought up the idea of short events lasting till the end of the turn:
I think it is - as the change is until the end of the turn.
When a region is changed it is still changed after the path it was changed in is over, so it should be the same with the site.
But I said:
I'm not sure. The problem is that the site leaves the table and comes back. Would elrond still have his prowess/body and DI bonuses from Vilya if he got called home in the mh phase and then played with Chance Meeting during the site phase?....
And there the discussion died.

Well, I still don't know what to think.  Does anyone have any wise ideas?

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Lord Leuber
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Re: Card Memory....

Post by Lord Leuber » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:01 pm

Zarathustra wrote:For example, if I use Praise to Elbereth in my org phase, I can keep tapping people to use it for my whole turn.  That much we know.
Uh, no.
CRF wrote:Which characters are tapping to discard which events must be declared when Praise to Elbereth is declared.

Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:16 pm

OK, so I picked the wrong example, but as CoE digest say:

"If a short event's text doesn't indicate a duration for its effect, the effect lasts until the end of the turn."

The question therefore remains....

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Post by Valarauko » Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:11 am

"If a short-event's text doesn't indicate a duration for its effect, the effect lasts until the end of the turn."

Ok, but.
If one plays a short-event and none of it's effect's immediatly affect the game, it would be "playing for no effect" and thus illegal play.

The short-event Vilya stops affecting the game when Erond leaves play and so it's effects are permanently lost.

Thoughts or facts?
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Post by Wacho » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:53 pm

I'm not so sure that the Eagle-mounts/Quiet Lands trick doesn't work.
Eagle-mounts says:
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company with a diplomat that begins the turn at Eagles' Eyrie. Company may move to any site that is not a Shadow-hold [S] or a Dark-hold [D]. Opponent may only play hazard creatures that are keyed to the company's site
Doesn't this set up a passive condition, so that when you reveal your site it checks if it is a Shadow or Dark-hold.  Then in response to the revealing the site (or triggering the passive) you hit Mt. Doom with Quiet Lands thereby tranforming the site and when the passive condition resolves everything is AOK.

Maybe this doesn't work, but it seems to me that it should.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:17 pm

Wacho wrote:I'm not so sure that the Eagle-mounts/Quiet Lands trick doesn't work.
Eagle-mounts says:
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company with a diplomat that begins the turn at Eagles' Eyrie. Company may move to any site that is not a Shadow-hold [S] or a Dark-hold [D]. Opponent may only play hazard creatures that are keyed to the company's site
Doesn't this set up a passive condition, so that when you reveal your site it checks if it is a Shadow or Dark-hold.  Then in response to the revealing the site (or triggering the passive) you hit Mt. Doom with Quiet Lands thereby tranforming the site and when the passive condition resolves everything is AOK.

Maybe this doesn't work, but it seems to me that it should.
I guess, you refers to the following rule:
CRF-Turn Sequence-Organization Phase-Choosing a New Site
Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is
revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met.
However Eagle-mounts does not create conditional effect, which may or may not resolve. It does not say: if company is moving to the site type X, then effect Y happens (and if type is not X, then effect Y does not happen).

It only allow for choosing as new site any non-under-deeps site which is not :S: or :D: . Choosing new site takes place in organization phase.

In other words without Eagles-Mounts declaration of movement to new site which is out of range (normally 4 regions) would be illegal, with Eagle-mounts such declaration is still illegal if site is :S: or :D: .
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Post by Zarathustra » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:40 pm

Right, I agree with Konrad.

But my question still remains, I think.  Because if the site, when revealed, IS a :R: (because it somehow remains a :R: even though it goes to your location deck) then your declared movement IS legal.

Or so I would expect at least.

Now, whether the site does remain a :R: is the interesting question, I think.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:35 pm

Though it is not exactly answer to the main question, I would make one remark.
Effects of Vilya played on Elrond and effect of Quiet Lands played on :S: differ essentially in one point.
First are applied actions, second is ongoing effect. :S: is not changed to :R:, but is treated as :R: until end of turn. Once applied action cannot be "undone" - sites tapped by actions from Long Winter does not untap when Gates of Morning comes into play, however :R: is not longer treated as :S: (ongoing effect of Chocking Shadows).
Still not sure whether site remember as should be treated or no. However Vilya on Elrond and Quiet Lands on :S: are not equal examples.
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Post by Wacho » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:30 am

hmm....in the general question I don't think that once a card has been removed from active play and then is brought back in play any effects would stick around.  For instance with Elrond and Vilya.  If Elrond was wounded for instance, and then was returned to hand with call of home or something, but he happened to show up at your site with A Chance meeting, you wouldn't play him wounded.  So I don't think effects of cards would stick around either.  Once the target of an effect is gone, the effect would be too.

With Quiet Lands, Eagle-mounts.  Konrad, I think your quote proves my point.  There is nothing in the CRF about a conditional effect.  It simply says that effects that are played during the org. phase and depend on the site or site path.....  This certainly is the case for Eagle-mounts.  The effect is you may move to any non shadow non dark hold site.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:50 am

Wacho wrote:There is nothing in the CRF about a conditional effect.
Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is
revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect.
This dependency on "on the site or site path" is what I mean as conditionally. "If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type" is case when conditions are not met.
I've used "conditional effect" as short name for "Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is
revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met".
Sorry if it makes confusion.
Wacho wrote:This certainly is the case for Eagle-mounts.  The effect is you may move to any non shadow non dark hold site.
I don't think so.
CRF-Turn Sequence-Movement/Hazard Phase-General
Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
I understand it in following way (example):
Doors of Night and Fell Winter (played in previous turn by me, thus not discarded yet in current long-event phase) are in play. During organisation phase Fair Travels in Wilderness is played. When new site is revealed then first effects of Fair Travels in Wilderness are declared then effects of Fell Winter. Effects of Fell Winter comes into play - all :b: are treated as :w: ,
then effects of Fair Travels in Wilderness resolve, giving stronger effect (because now there are more :w: in company's site path).

I don't think it is possible: declaration of illegal movement and next playing of cards which makes this movement legal at resolution.
Similary it is not possible to play Cave-Drake on :B: and response with Nature's Revange or Gloom (for second effect) making it played on :R: at resolution.

Regards.
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Post by Wacho » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:43 pm

I don't see what the Eagle-Mounts/Quiet Lands scenario has to do with multiple effects in play.

The applicable quote which you stated from the CRF is that effects played in the organization phase (Which Eagle-mounts is) and depend on the site or site path (which Eagle-mounts does) create an effect that is not declared until the new site is revealed.

Once that effect is declared you can respond with other cards, such as Quiet Lands so that Eagle-mounts does take effect.  This is what the CRF says.  I really don't see how you can argue against that.  

Or is your point simply that Mt. Doom is too far away from Eagle's Eyrie?  Since you can't normally move more than 4 regions you can't reveal Mt. Doom, but you could for instance use Eagle-mounts/Quiet Lands and move to Moria.  So if you have a site played that is too far to move normally to you simply can't reveal it.  This seems more reasonable as an argument, but I'm still not sure I buy it.  How do you know that the site is unreachable until it is revealed?  And upon revealing effects played during org. phase are declared and resolved in a chain of events.  Also what happens in the general situation when someone makes a mistake and plays a site that they can't get to?  In casual play I just let them switch out sites, but I would think that the official ruling was that when the movement tries to resolve it can't and you have to stay where you are.  I tried looking this up in the CRF but didn't find much.  I did find this quote from the Tournament rulings under Movement.
Wizard companies cannot use starter movement to or from sites in Gorgoroth. If using region movement to or from sites in Gorgoroth, they must move from a site in Imlad Morgul, through either Nurn or Udûn, or use a movement enhancer like Ash Mountains or Eagle-mounts. Such sites may be reached normally with Under-deeps movement.
Since the only sites in Gorgoroth are shadow-holds or dark-holds this certainly seems to suggest Eagle-mounts/Quiet Lands would work to move to Mt. Doom.


We are getting away from the topic of Card memory.  Maybe we should split this off to a new thread.

Wacho

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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:51 pm

Still to the Eagle-Mounts/Quiet Lands sub-thread.
Wacho wrote:I don't see what the Eagle-Mounts/Quiet Lands scenario has to do with multiple effects in play.
I don't see too. And I don't see what the Eagle-Mounts/Quiet Lands scenario has to do with "create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed." It is not effect like "if site is not :S: or :D: company may move to the new site, otherwise cannot move". Can you say that effect of tapping of Wild Horses is an effect that is not declared until the new site is revealed (because is depending on presence of certain regions in company's site path) ?  
I only see correlation between Annotation 26 and "Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared...".

Question is: when company is consideres as "moving"?
Rules and text of certain cards are not clear at this point.

Definition is:
Moving Company: A company in the process of moving between a site of origin and new site. A company is moving during its movement/hazard phase from the time it reveals its new site until the site of origin is removed.
However,
Lidless Eye-MOVING COMPANIES TO THE SAME NON-DARKHAVEN SITE
During the organization phase, two or more companies may move to the same non-Darkhaven site, but one of the following cases must apply:
(...)
Definitions says about a company moving during its movement/hazard phase. Other rule says that "two or more companies may move" during the organization phase.
Effects of certain cards cause "movement without a movement/hazard phase." (Bill The Pony, Ancient Stair).
Certain other cards are "Playable at the end of organization phase on a moving company" (Washed and Refreshed).
Especially last citation indicate me that "may move" refer to the process of choosing new site during organization phase. i.e. to the committing to moving to the choosen site.
Wacho wrote:How do you know that the site is unreachable until it is revealed?
I don't know regardless that Eagle-Mounts was played or not. It does not mean that certain movement cannot be illegal even if I cannot verify it at the point when it was declared. I don't now even that my opponent have two or more the same unique non-avatar cards in deck and sideboard combined (included by mistake or for other reasons) until I look at his hand or deck/pile and casualy discover it. It does not mean that it is legal.

You are right at this point, this is problem. Only this is yet another problem - problem of undefined situation, when certain wrong declaration cannot be verified immediately and therefore can be used for semi-legal bluff (unlike as illegal agent's movement, which though "illegal" is not breaking rules and cause just discarding agent and cancelling it's effect).

Similar problem has been resolved in The Dragons in simple way. Refuge and Wondrous Maps require to play regions face-up and prevent player from choosing appropriate region at the start of M/H phase (and prevent Refuge and Wondrous Maps from fizzling as result of playing/discarding certain [for example enviroment] cards).
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Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:36 pm

Returning to the main topic...
Applied action vs ongoing effect.

Suppose that Clear Skies are in play. During organization phase Elrond plays Vilya. He receives +4 prowess, +2 body, +6 DI to the end of turn. Player shuffles 3 resources from discard pile to playdeck. Elrond makes cc, fails and is discarded. Player plays Favor of the Valar, draws 8 cards (luckily Elrond). Player brought Elrond into play.

I don't think that Elrond remember bonuses from Vilya. They was applied once when Vilya was resolved, as well as shuffling of resources to the deck and making corruption check.
Question is that Elrond remember bonuses from Clear Skies or not ? I think that in this case there is nothing to remember. Effect of "+2 to character's prowess" is in play so along, as Clear Skies are in play. Elrond can leave play and then can be brought back and these bonuses will be waiting for him, as existing independently, unlike effects of action applied to Elrond (Vilya).

In other words: effects, which are not applied (to a given card) action remains in play regardless that affected card is in play or not.
From the other hand such effects can be canceled - 2nd effect of Quiet Lands by Doors of Night, or 2nd effect of Chocking Shadows by Gates of Morning.
Applied action when resolved cannot be canceled - Gates of Morning cannot cancel effects of such action like: returning company to the site of origin, tapping site (Long Winter, Foul Fumes), or tapping Elf (New Moon) even if these action was created by enviroment cards. Also :R: changed to :S: by Deeper Shadow, or :w: changed to :b: by Master of Wood, Water, or Hill are examples of such actions - applied to target.  

I think that effect like "treat [not change] one :S: as a :R: " is effect of the same type as effect of Clear Skies.
Not applied to target and existing in play independently.
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Post by Jaded » Sat May 13, 2006 9:14 am

contntinuing this topic (was this mess needed?): http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=
Wacho wrote: I don't really see what annotation 25 has to do with this, Jaded.  Can you explain?
CRF wrote: Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site.


This means when you reveal new site card there is no time to "catch up" some eagles - you are moving, and your move is (in this case) illegal.

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Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Thu May 18, 2006 10:14 am

Jaded wrote:contntinuing this topic (was this mess needed?): http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=
Wacho wrote: I don't really see what annotation 25 has to do with this, Jaded.  Can you explain?
CRF wrote: Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site.


This means when you reveal new site card there is no time to "catch up" some eagles - you are moving, and your move is (in this case) illegal.
I still don't think it is illegal.

I choose Mount Doom, i reveal it and at that time i target it with Quite Lands. Why i cannot target it? There is ALWAYS time to target sites during movement/hazard phase. I don't see it is negated by Annotation 25, it just states that you're moving during that phase ...

Take an example ... i can change opponent's new site with Chance of Being Lost for example, at the same time/way i can target a "possible" illegal site and chance it to a legal one.

Timing speaking, like you can tap your character DURING the untap phase and THEN Untap it before the end of that, you can target and change the site type in this case before/during the movement.

just my 2 cents,

mm75

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