Card Memory (Re: Eagle Mounts, Quiet Lands and Mount Doom)

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Jaded
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Post by Jaded » Thu May 18, 2006 1:19 pm

melkor_morgoth75 wrote: I choose Mount Doom, i reveal it and at that time i target it with Quite Lands. Why i cannot target it? There is ALWAYS time to target sites during movement/hazard phase. I don't see it is negated by Annotation 25, it just states that you're moving during that phase ...
It's easy. You cannot target unrevealed site. When it's revealed it shows your move is illegal, you must get back.

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Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Thu May 18, 2006 1:36 pm

Jaded wrote:
melkor_morgoth75 wrote: I choose Mount Doom, i reveal it and at that time i target it with Quite Lands. Why i cannot target it? There is ALWAYS time to target sites during movement/hazard phase. I don't see it is negated by Annotation 25, it just states that you're moving during that phase ...
It's easy. You cannot target unrevealed site. When it's revealed it shows your move is illegal, you must get back.
Where is it written that i cannot target a site with any card (and so change it's site type) as soon as it is revealed?

mm75

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Jaded
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Post by Jaded » Thu May 18, 2006 1:56 pm

melkor_morgoth75 wrote:
Jaded wrote:
It's easy. You cannot target unrevealed site. When it's revealed it shows your move is illegal, you must get back.
Where is it written that i cannot target a site with any card (and so change it's site type) as soon as it is revealed?
I don't know, I didn't say that :)

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Post by Wacho » Thu May 18, 2006 4:31 pm

You do not target the unrevealed site Jaded.  As per the CRF Eagle-Mounts and any such card played during the org phase that depends on the site or site path create an effect which is declared once the site is revealed.  You do have time to respond to this declaration with Quiet Lands and as effects are resolved last to first Quiet Lands will change your site into a Ruins&Lairs and then Eagle-Mounts allows you to move.

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Jaded
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Post by Jaded » Thu May 18, 2006 9:05 pm

Check this out:
You play Eagle mounts
in m/h you reveal Mount Doom
you draw 3 cards, your opponent 6
you don't have Quiet lands (didn't draw it, or even didn't have it)
you smile and say "uhm , that move is illegal"
but the cards are drawn...

and this:
you start at Rivendell wit 5 characters, two key characters and 3 "runners"
before you move the key characters you move runners to:
easterling camp, shrel-kain, Iron hill dwarf hold
and now what? you draw 10 cards and say "uhm , those moves are illegal"?

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Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Fri May 19, 2006 7:02 am

Is it possible to have this one clarified in the next Ruling Digest?

tx,

mm75

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Post by Wacho » Fri May 19, 2006 2:32 pm

Drawing cards is not the first action after revealing a site.  Consider Underdeeps movement.  You roll for movement and then if successful you draw cards.  Eagle-Mounts sets up a condition that depends on the site path and is declared upon the revealing of the site.  This chain of events terminates in the movement of the company and the draw of cards.  However there is time to affect this chain of events.

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Jaded
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Post by Jaded » Fri May 19, 2006 4:59 pm

Wacho wrote:Drawing cards is not the first action after revealing a site.  
Of course not:
Annotation 25b: Players drawing cards when a new site is revealed is synonymous with the resolution of the new site being revealed. It happens immediately, not in the following chain of effects.

Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Fri May 19, 2006 5:07 pm

Dave: I think the under-deeps rule you cite is an exception, not the general case....  It's not possible, for example, to play Many Turns and Doublings before your opponent draws his cards, in hopes that he won't have anything good to play in response yet....

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Post by Wacho » Fri May 19, 2006 10:13 pm

Okay.  I guess I was wrong about that.  The Underdeeps exception is a little bit misleading.  However, the CRF is clear about the play of cards during the org phase that depend on the site path or site type.  They are considered declared after the site is revealed and have no effect if the site/sitepath is not of the appropriate type at that point in time (my emphasis).  The legality/nonlegality is not checked until then.

If my opponent makes a move that is illegal I would just make him take it back, including any cards drawn.  Just like you would take back any card played that turned out to be illegal.  This happens regularly, I don't think it's a big deal.

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Jaded
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Post by Jaded » Sat May 20, 2006 2:05 pm

Ok: you draw Quiet lands, opponent plays Twilight. The move at this time is illegal. Do you put back the cards?

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Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:46 am

Jaded wrote:Ok: you draw Quiet lands, opponent plays Twilight. The move at this time is illegal. Do you put back the cards?
It's a legal play for me and there is NO rule about that ... is there NOT an "official" (let's call it) answer to that Eagle Mounts question?

mm75

PS: sorry ... but i'm back to my deck lately  :wink:

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|Highwayman|
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Post by |Highwayman| » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:15 pm

maybe it's time to stir this discussion up a bit...

I was the one who asked the question which started all this and I kept my mouth shut about this problem since then. Lately me and Konrad have found something new about the card memory thingy... but I'll save that for the end of my post as first I would like to give my opinion about the whole Eagle-mounts-Quiet Land-Mount Doom-illegal movement-timing-thing

After thoroughly reading posts in this topic for a few times I came to a conclusion that the Air Lift to Mount Doom trick is not legal in it's current form of play, but it could be legal if played with some extra cards/conditions...

You can't target cards that are not in play (can't target Mount Doom in your location deck) - which is quite obvious to all.
You can’t play Quiet Lands and select it’s target site at a later time.
You can't reveal a site for your company to move to if your company can't reach it - all that stuff that can make you move through more regions, move as if some regions were connected or use some other special movement has to be played before you reveal your site.
Revealing a site and drawing cards - by which you start your company's movement/hazard phase (i.e. they start moving) - is simultaneous with no time to do anything else
Therefore: you can't play Quiet Lands on Mount Doom while it is unrevealed, and you have no time to play it when revealing Mount Doom -  so unless your move is otherwise legal (i.e. you could have reached Mount Doom by regions without flying there) it's a no go.

Playing Eagle-mounts during the org phase doesn't forbid you from going to a Shadow-hold :S: or a Dark-hold :D: it just makes it possible for you to move in a special way (i.e. fly) to a non-Shadow-hold :S: non-Dark-hold :D: site. And because I reason that there's no way to change a site's type upon revealing it therefore the revealed site for the Eagle-mounts company must be a  non-Shadow-hold :S: non-Dark-hold :D: or within “walking” range of the company's movement.

So for the Air Lift to Mount Doom trick to work, Mount Doom has to be:
a) already revealed and in play with changed site type when the Eagle-mounts company starts it's movement/hazard phase and flies off to Mount Doom;
b) within “walking” range of the Eagle-mounts company's movement range (so if you're flying from Eagles' Eyrie you need to be able to move through 6 regions, or with Ash Mountains and 4 regions)
c)*able to remember that Quiet Lands has already been played on it when it comes back into play from location deck (for example with the use of agent-Withdrawn to Mordor trick described in the first post of this topic)

Enough said about Air Lift to Mount Doom - my whole reasoning is based on a conclusion that because revealing a site and drawing cards is simultaneous and marks the start of the company's movement there's no time to play Quiet Lands then and you just can't reveal the site if you couldn't move to it; and also that you can't play Quiet Lands and target Mount Doom while it is still in your location deck, or choose a target site for Quiet Lands effect later

Can anyone confirm my reasoning or prove it wrong?

As for this:
Jaded wrote:Ok: you draw Quiet lands, opponent plays Twilight. The move at this time is illegal. Do you put back the cards?
Assuming my reasoning is correct, this play is done within "walking distance" from Mount Doom - so you still move but by foot (you have a site path with a bunch of region types and names) not via Eagle-mounts, cuz Twilight cancels the Quiet Lands effect which would make a flying trip possible


now for the Card Memory thingy
Lately on our Polish forum we stumbled upon Legendary Hoard, the main problem we had is not important here but somewhere along Konrad pointed to the Cannot be duplicated on a given Dragon. text at the very end of Legendary Hoard card text
Konrad said that this means that you can't play another copy of Legendary Hoard on the same dragon - ever, even after one copy of Legendary Hoard played on the given dragon was discarded, even after the given dragon's at home manifestation is discarded and later played again...

I said that cards don't have such memory and the Cannot be duplicated on a given Dragon. text is there so that someone wouldn't play 2 or 3 copies of Legendary Hoard on the same dragon and play even 10 items on the given dragon's "home site"
Then Konrad pulled out The Pale Sword, which is unique, so it is perfectly clear that only one can be in deck so only one can be in the same chain of effect, and yet The Pale Sword has a May not be duplicated on a given Nazgul. text at the end of it's card text...

I mean if a card is unique it can't be duplicated in any way during the same time in a game, so why the May not be duplicated on a given Nazgul. text? Maybe cards have memory that goes beyond being used/discarded after all?
Any thoughts here?


PS
Sorry for such a longish post, and concerning two only partially related problems, if you mod guys think it should be divided please do so

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|Highwayman|
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Post by |Highwayman| » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:11 am

over a week and over 150 views of this topic later and still no reply...

come on rule spec.'s, anyone?

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Post by miguel » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:59 pm

|Highwayman| wrote:So for the Air Lift to Mount Doom trick to work, Mount Doom has to be:
a) already revealed and in play with changed site type when the Eagle-mounts company starts it's movement/hazard phase and flies off to Mount Doom;
b) within “walking” range of the Eagle-mounts company's movement range (so if you're flying from Eagles' Eyrie you need to be able to move through 6 regions, or with Ash Mountains and 4 regions)
c)*able to remember that Quiet Lands has already been played on it when it comes back into play from location deck (for example with the use of agent-Withdrawn to Mordor trick described in the first post of this topic)
I agree with a) and b). I doubt Mt Doom has any memory as in c). I don't have anything to back this up with atm, maybe I'll look into it later... But at least you got a response.  :wink:
|Highwayman| wrote: Then Konrad pulled out The Pale Sword, which is unique, so it is perfectly clear that only one can be in deck so only one can be in the same chain of effect, and yet The Pale Sword has a May not be duplicated on a given Nazgul. text at the end of it's card text...

I mean if a card is unique it can't be duplicated in any way during the same time in a game, so why the May not be duplicated on a given Nazgul. text? Maybe cards have memory that goes beyond being used/discarded after all?
Any thoughts here?
I strongly suspect the May not be duplicated part is a remnant from playtesting (the cardtext is quite similar to Morgul-knife). Some TW cards have problems like this, it being the first set and all.

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