On-Guard Short-events: No chance for response?

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Konrad Klar
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On-Guard Short-events: No chance for response?

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:13 pm

CRF-Turn Sequence-Site Phase-On-Guard Cards
Rules Erratum: An on-guard card may only be revealed if it could have also been played during the movement/hazard phase. This means all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed. A revealed on-guard card retroactively takes effect as though it were both declared and resolved immediately prior to the chain of effects during which it was revealed.
This means that characters cannot tap in support to cc caused by revealed Weariness of The Heart and such cc cannot be modified by any effect, which could be normally declared in response to Weariness of The Heart.

Any comments/ideas?
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Post by Jaded » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:08 am

What about:
Before the roll is made for a corruption check, you may tap other characters in the same company as the character making the check. The corruption check is modified by +1 for each such character tapped.
?

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Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:32 pm

CRF-Rulings by Term-Corruption
The resolution of a character tapping to give +1 to a corruption check happens when the corruption check itself resolves.
Question is when declaration is made? In middle of resolving COE? If so why characters cannot tap in support between actions: "Immediately untap all unwounded characters in Gandalf's company." and "Gandalf makes a corruption check modified by -5."
Narya
Gandalf only. +4 prowess, +1 body, +2 direct influence for the rest of the turn. Immediately untap all unwounded characters in Gandalf's company. Gandalf makes a corruption check modified by -5.  'For this is the Ring of Fire and with it you may rekindle
CRF-Errata (Cards)
Narya
Because of the way that timing rules work, characters tapping in support have no effect on the corruption check, since they will be untapped when the support resovles. See also Rulings by Term, Corruption.
Character tapped in response of declaration cc is character tapped "Before the roll is made for a corruption check". Rules does not say "Immediately before the roll is made for a corruption check".
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Post by Gwaihir » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:31 am

Konrad Klar wrote:Question is when declaration is made?
CRF, turn sequence, M/H, on guard wrote:A revealed on-guard card retroactively takes effect as though it were both declared and resolved immediately prior to the chain of effects during which it was revealed.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:25 am

OK.

Question is when declaration of support to cc (tapping) is made?

If cc is declared I can respond, declaring other action in the same COE. Unless I missed something, a revealed on-guard card does not start its own chain of effect. It is "both declared and resolved immediately" not giving time for any other declaration.
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Post by Sauron » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:56 am

Konrad Klar wrote:OK.

Question is when declaration of support to cc (tapping) is made?

If cc is declared I can respond, declaring other action in the same COE. Unless I missed something, a revealed on-guard card does not start its own chain of effect. It is "both declared and resolved immediately" not giving time for any other declaration.
You declare weariness of the heart, it resolves.  The result of the card is a corruption check.  The card has already resolved at this point.  Now the corruption check takes effect.  You can tap to support now.

Also what would you declare with when the CC happens?  It is the site phase and you can't play any more hazards at this point or do anything as far as I know.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:46 am

Maybe Narya has special timing? Otherwise I could tap character in support cc when Narya is resolved, especially that I would have a lot untapped characters in Gandalf's company.
Personally I think that timing works in old fashion way: cards/effects are resolved from last declared to first declared (and action printed on cards are declared in reverse order than order in which are printed). And "The resolution of a character tapping to give +1 to a corruption check happens when the corruption check itself resolves." Why Frodo was tapped in support to cc in response to Wearines of The Heart, not waiting for moment when Wearines of The Heart become resolved (example on page 63 METW manual [is it wrong example?])  
Also what would you declare with when the CC happens?  It is the site phase and you can't play any more hazards at this point or do anything as far as I know.
If "you" is player which is turn, then "you" may declare resources or "you" may tap characters in support to cc or "you" may declare other actions otherwise allowed in site phase.
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Post by Zarathustra » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:01 am

It's not complicated.  You're just confusing yourself -- and, I daresay, probably a good couple of fellow readers as well.

The reason you cannot (effectively) tap characters to help Gandalf when he makes his Narya cc is not that you don't have time to do it.  The reason is that Narya will untap the tapped characters before the cc is made, and so they will not be tapped (an active condition of supporting the cc by +1) when the check is made.

There is simply nothing similar when it comes to Weariness of the Heart.  If the text of WotH also specified that everyone in the target-character's company had to untap, then you would be right, Konrad.   As it stands, you are simply confused.

Since WotH doesn't untap your characters, you can tap them in response to the cc (not the declaration of WotH, but the cc itself).

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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:17 am

Something for you, Mark. Some more confusing texts...

CRF-Rulings by Term-Targets.
Annotation 1: A card is not in play until it is resolved in its chain of effects. When the play of a card is declared, no elements of the card may be the target of actions declared in the same chain of effects. An exception to this is a dice-rolling action, e.g. a corruption check.
Annotation 2: A corruption check or any dice-rolling action can be targeted in the chain of effects during which it was declared.
CRF-Rulings by Term-Active Conditions
Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
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Post by Zarathustra » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:46 am

I find these texts quite straightforward, especially considering the fact that ICE published them.

I believe the crux of the problem is that you are assuming that since WotH is considered already resolved when it is revealed on guard, so is the cc.  That is simply not the case.  WotH's being resolved just means that I cannot, for example, try to fizzle it with Many Turns and Doublings.

As long as the dice haven't been rolled for the cc, I can still tap characters to support it.

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Post by henrikbe » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:15 am

Zarathustra wrote:Since WotH doesn't untap your characters, you can tap them in response to the cc (not the declaration of WotH, but the cc itself).
And why is this any different from Narya? After all the characters are untapped, a cc occurs. Why can't I tap characters in response to the cc?
Henrik

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Post by Sly Southerner » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:36 am

And why is this any different from Narya? After all the characters are untapped, a cc occurs. Why can't I tap characters in response to the cc?
Because your guys are forced to untap, they cant tap for the cc support. Sounds silly I agree but thats the rule.

More discussion here:
http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?t=589
So that's where that southerner is hiding...He looks more than half like a goblin.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:00 pm

Sly Southerner wrote: Because your guys are forced to untap, they cant tap for the cc support. Sounds silly I agree but thats the rule.

More discussion here:
http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?t=589

Zarathustra wrote:As long as the dice haven't been rolled for the cc, I can still tap characters to support it.
Ultimately: is untapping effect of Narya helpfull, or canceling for tapping in support to cc?

Eeeh... vague...
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Post by Moria tour guide » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:31 pm

About Narya,

I am seeing Konrad's view point.

I would agree with Konrad on Narya if "Immediately" was
not in the text and the corruption check statement was in its own
paragraph.

The -5 to the check does support Konrad's viewpoint.
Konrad's viewpoint will support the better use of Gandalf,

I will not go further with Narya in this thread.
[Mod note:] please heed these wise words. Let's not needlessly complicate the topic: for this thread Narya works as ruled. If you want to raise doubts about Narya, please do so in the thread about that card.[/mod]



I agree and like the Zarathustra's comment:
I believe the crux of the problem is that you are assuming that since WotH is considered already resolved when it is revealed on guard, so is the cc.  That is simply not the case.  WotH's being resolved just means that I cannot, for example, try to fizzle it with Many Turns and Doublings.

As long as the dice haven't been rolled for the cc, I can still tap characters to support it.

Thanks,

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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:06 pm

Moria tour guide wrote:I am seeing Konrad's view point.
Somehow doubtful ;), because: I actually agree with CRF's ruling on Narya.

Dice-rolling actions may be targeted by effects declared in the same CoE in which dice-rolling actions was declared. Frodo cannot tap in support to cc when WoTH starts resolving (METW p.63).

Timing Example: You play Weariness of the Heart on Bilbo to force him to make a corruption check. Your opponent taps Frodo (2nd action in this chain of effects) to give Bilbo +1 to this check. You play Call of Home on Bilbo (3rd action), which forces Bilbo to make a successful roll or return to his owner's hand. Finally, your opponent plays Tookish Blood on Bilbo. This cancels any effect for the rest of the turn which would discard Bilbo or send him to his owner's hand. Now you resolve actions from last to first:

   * Tookish Blood takes effect.
   * Call of Home takes effect, but Tookish Blood negates any effect it would have.
   * Frodo gives +1 to Bilbo's corruption check (an action can target a dice-rolling action that was declared earlier in the same chain of effects, even though the dice-rolling action has not taken effect).
   * Bilbo makes his corruption check-he rolls the dice adding +1 to his roll because of Frodo's help (other modifications not discussed here). Tookish Blood cancels any result of this corruption check that would discard Bilbo.

If your opponent had played Tookish Blood on Bilbo after his dice roll, i.e. after this chain of effects was resolved, it would not have affected your Call of Home nor Bilbo's corruption check. Tookish Blood only cancels those actions that occur during the rest of the turn, and not prior actions.
Consider if Tookish Blood had not been played and if you played Call of Home on Frodo. First Frodo rolls for Call of Home when resolving the chain. If he fails this check, Frodo goes back to your opponent's hand. The 2nd action in the chain would then be negated because the conditions required to perform it, namely Frodo being in Bilbo's company, were negated by your Call of Home.
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