Cracks of Doom vs Tookish Blood

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Ringbearer
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Cracks of Doom vs Tookish Blood

Post by Ringbearer » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:08 am

MY opponent was playing a dunk deck, and he arrived at Mt. Doom. Sam is carrying the One. He then proceeds to play Cracks of Doom, followed by a bunch of booster for the corruption check. He then plays Tookish blood...

My question is: if he fails the corruption check by 1, does the Ring become destroyed? Sam cant be discardded, but does that mean he passes the CC anyway?
Player of killer hazards no-one else ever dares to play :D

Kees
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Post by Kees » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:57 am

No, he still fails the check, even though he can't be discarded.

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Post by miguel » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:48 pm

Actually Sam is NOT considered to fail his corruption check in this case (CRF: Rulings by term: Corruption). We will probably need an official answer from the NetRep for this one.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:34 pm

No, the answer is found on Cracks of Doom.  It requires that the corruption check be successful.  Just because Sam doesn't fail, that doesn't mean he succeeds.

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Post by miguel » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:14 pm

Well, if you read the Corruption section in the rulesbook, you will find out there is actually no corruption checks that "succeed", only ones that either fail (discarded or eliminated) or don't fail (nothing happens). According to the CRF, the corruption check in this case does NOT fail (nothing happens). That would suggest Cracks of Doom is succesful (cc did not fail).

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Post by miguel » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:22 pm

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, yes it was me playing that dunk deck!  8)

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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:00 am

miguel wrote:Well, if you read the Corruption section in the rulesbook, you will find out there is actually no corruption checks that "succeed", only ones that either fail (discarded or eliminated) or don't fail (nothing happens). According to the CRF, the corruption check in this case does NOT fail (nothing happens). That would suggest Cracks of Doom is succesful (cc did not fail).
Contrarily, if a corruption check by the rules can not by definition succeed, only "not fail," then Cracks of Doom can never be used to win the game. :)

Sam is not considered to have failed his corruption check, but for the purpose of interpreting Cracks of Doom, this is not synonymous with success, since Cracks of Doom specifically mentions it being successful.  I see that word as a stiffer requirement than merely not failing.

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Post by Wacho » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:22 am

Not failing is equivalent to succeeding in this case.  Consider an analogous example.  Sam is storing an aligned palantir.  He plays Tookish Blood and rolls equal to his CP total.  Without Tookish Blood he's discarded and you lose the palatir, but in this case he sticks around and the palantir is stored.  You've succeeded in what you are trying to do.  There isn't a state in between success and failure.

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Post by Sly Southerner » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:01 am

I think actually he fails the check, but is not discarded becuase of Tookish Blood. By definition the CC fails based on the dice roll. The effects of that failure are then applied as per the rules, with card text such as Tookish Blood (or Magical Harp for eg) then overriding the discard effect. He certainly doesnt succeed IMHO. I am sure it has been ruled this way before.

What basis do you have for saying he does not fail the check?
So that's where that southerner is hiding...He looks more than half like a goblin.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:27 am

Sly Southerner wrote:
What basis do you have for saying he does not fail the check?
Because the CRF says that such a protected character is not considered to have failed a corruption check.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:32 am

Wacho wrote:Not failing is equivalent to succeeding in this case.  Consider an analogous example.  Sam is storing an aligned palantir.  He plays Tookish Blood and rolls equal to his CP total.  Without Tookish Blood he's discarded and you lose the palatir, but in this case he sticks around and the palantir is stored.  You've succeeded in what you are trying to do.  There isn't a state in between success and failure.
Sure there is; it's called mediocrity. :)

But the same problem applies; per the rules, all that's required to store an item is to not fail.  Whereas Cracks of Doom specifically calls for a success in order to win the game.  The question is whether that's an accidental wording or whether it ought to be interpreted literally.

The CRF does not say that a character protected by Tookish Blood is considered to have made a succesful corruption check; it says that character is considered not to have failed.

What we really need is a parallel card that calls for a succesful corruption check (my mind isn't what it used to be, so I can't think of any, offhand).  It seems to me that the CRF was geared more along the lines of preventing effects (hazard or otherwise) that rely on a failed corruption check.

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Post by Wacho » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:20 am

There are only 3 possible outcomes of a corruption check (for hero characters) listed in the rulebook.

#1 -- Character passes his corruption check and nothing happens
#2 -- Character fails corruption check and is discarded
#3 -- Character fails corruption check and is eliminated

If Tookish Blood prevents #2, and a character no longer fails his corruption check this turns situation #2 into #1.  I don't see how you can say that this doesn't equal success.  Where do you find that in the rules?

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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:49 am

Wacho wrote:There are only 3 possible outcomes of a corruption check (for hero characters) listed in the rulebook.

#1 -- Character passes his corruption check and nothing happens
#2 -- Character fails corruption check and is discarded
#3 -- Character fails corruption check and is eliminated

If Tookish Blood prevents #2, and a character no longer fails his corruption check this turns situation #2 into #1.  I don't see how you can say that this doesn't equal success.  Where do you find that in the rules?
That's the point.  You can't find a definition of a succesful corruption check in the rules.  The question in my mind is whether "succesful" means it has to start out as #1 or whether #2 becoming #1 is sufficient.

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Post by Zarathustra » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:23 am

I found the source for my belief that Tookish Blood does not act as a +2 corruption check modifier relative to Cracks of Doom.  In 1999, Craig "Ichabod" O'Brian ruled at USA nationals that it does not work thus.  As I recall, he was the netrep at the time, but he made the ruling not as the official netrep but as the judge of the tournament.  To my knowledge, this question has not been ruled on officially yet.

Well, it's an interesting question.  I'll have to bring it up with the team some time.

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Post by Beornd » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:51 am

Code: Select all

Necklace of Girion!
MP:  4 item
Influence:  (+3)
Corruption:  3
Description:  Unique.  Only playable at The Lonely Mountain.  Bearer receives +3 direct influence against Dwarves/Men and Dwarf/Man factions.  If bearer is at a Free-hold [F] or Border-hold [B], he can make a corruption check, and, if successful, you may discard Necklace of Girion to play any non-special item from your hand with its bearer.
Only this card i found and here i think its clear. either corruption check is ok(SUCCESSFUL).... und than you can do the cardtext....... or the corruption check is not ok (discarded or eliminated) than you cannot do what is written on the card, because NoG was discarded.

So i think the problem is the grammar(meaning) not the corruption-rules by theirselves.

Finally Tookish Blood prevents from discarding (crf 15) so a good combo -
congrats miguel :wink:
bb

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