Highwayman attacks! - Bringing Characters into Play

Ask any question regarding the game's (official) rules

Moderators: Jambo, Moderators

User avatar
|Highwayman|
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:16 am
Location: Poland

Highwayman attacks! - Bringing Characters into Play

Post by |Highwayman| » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:18 am

As far as I know there are 6 cards that affect the mechanism of Bringing Characters into Play
Open to the Summons
minion resource - permanent-event
Mind:  -1
Description:  Playable on a company.  One agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven :h: ---place this card with the agent.  -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1.  This card may be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item.  When played as such, reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character.  Cannot be duplicated on a given character.
overrides the rules for bringing in agents into play as characters - normally they can only brought into play at one of their home sites, but thanks to Open to the Summons it's possible to play an agents at a haven
Thrall of the Voice
stage resource - permanent-event
Mind:  -1
SP:  1
Description:  Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind.  Place this card with the character.  -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1.  Such a character may also be in your starting company.
overrides the fallen-wizard restrictions of character playability - allows to play a character with a mind of 6 witch is normally impossible for a fallen-wizard player to do and/or allows to play an orc/troll character without any other stage resources required for it
The Windlord Found Me
hero resource - permanent-event
MP:  3 miscellaneous
Description:  Playable at an untapped Isengard, Shadow-hold [S], or Dark-hold [D] during the site phase.  Tap the site.  The company faces an Orc attack (4 strikes with 9 prowess).  Afterwards, a character may tap and place this card under him.  That character may not untap until after this card is stored in a Haven [H] during the organization phase.  When this card is stored, and if your Wizard is not already in play, you may search your play deck or discard pile for a Wizard and play him at that Haven [H] (does not count towards the one character per turn limit).  Cannot be duplicated by a given player.  If you do not place this card with a character after the attack, discard it.
allows to play your wizard at the time of storing this card, basically it only overrides the 1 character per turn limit (as it is said so on the card) but in conjunction with Safe from the Shadow (which allows to store events during the end-of-turn phase) it can also override the restriction of being able to bring characters into play only during the organization phase
Helm of Her Secrecy
hero resource - permanent-event
Influence:  +1
Prowess/Body:  +2/+1
Description:  If Eowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned).  The company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site.  If enough influence is available to control her, Eowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company.  She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence.  If the attack is a Nazgul, place Helm of Her Secrecy with Eowyn following the attack.  Otherwise, discard this card following the attack.  Regardless, Eowyn remains in play.
overrides both the 1 character per turn limit and the restriction of being able to bring characters into play only during the organization phase
A Chance Meeting
hero resource - short-event
A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play with direct influence at any Free-hold [F], Border-hold , or Ruins & Lairs [R].
(errata: the character does not count against the one character per turn limit.)

We Have Come to Kill
minion resource - short-event
A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold [S], Ruins & Lairs [R], or Border-hold .  This does not count against the one character per turn limit.


this is where real problems begin
resource events in general are playable anytime during your turn, you only need to fulfill their playability requirements (if any)
I believe that A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill have such requirement - specified by the Bringing Characters into Play rules, which specify when can you play characters – during the organization phase
People argue that short-event rules override the general rules for Bringing Characters into Play

but

1 - there are also very specific rules about what resources can you play when facing auto-attacks, and yet it has be ruled fairly recently that the general short-event rules do not override them, furthermore even though "card text overrides the rules" cards that simply say "playable on an attack" also were ruled that they do not override the auto-attacks rules
2 - Witch-king, Khamul the Ringwraith and Black Horse all allow to play a ringwraith follower, but were ruled to be restricted to organization phase only
3 - Old Road, following a mechanism similar to A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill allows you to try and play a faction (and factions are only playable during the site phase) and yet it was ruled that Old Road can only be played during the site phase - even though it's a short-event and following the short-event rules should be allowed to be played anytime during your turn
4 - Bandobras Took pointed out that:
Bandobras Took wrote:A Chance Meeting says that a character may be brought into play, and this is interpreted as immediately -- not during the next organization phase when character play is normally supposed to happen.  If Eagle-Mounts allows a company to move to a site, it will do it immediately upon resolution -- since it does not specify a moving company, there is no reason for its effect to be delayed any more than there is a reason for Chance Meeting's effect to be delayed.


so it seems only A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill are so very special that they violate and trample all rules while other cards are forced to abide them...
I must explain myself about the errata text I've added to A Chance Meeting - I took the liberty of doing so because this ruling isn't about clarifying anything, it changes the way A Chance Meeting works by making it better and so is de facto an errata in my opinion
as for the other ruling - about playability outside of the organization phase - I see no reason for treating it as an errata, especially as people try to justify this ruling by following the general short-event rules making this a clarification of how A Chance Meeting can be played rather than a change in how the card works

It's pretty obvious that I do not agree with the way A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill can be played now. For some reason those two cards are treaded specially, outside of other rules and precedence, as I've tried to show above.
If some people believe that we can't just accept one ruling about A Chance Meeting (does not count against the one character per turn limit) and throw away the other one (playable anytime you want) I'll gladly step down and forget about the first ruling which basically makes A Chance Meeting work like We Have Come to Kill, but while We Have Come to Kill is a Rare, A Chance Meeting as a meager Common so maybe it's a valid point that they should differ in power
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

Jambo
Moderator
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Post by Jambo » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:04 pm

Thrall of the Voice is the only card that says "Instead of a.." so that to me is clear that it's not in addition to the 1 character per turn.

Wacho (aka David) found some text in the Wizard's players guide to suggest that ACM and WHCtK can be used at any time a company is at a site (i.e. not necessarily just Org phase). I'm not sure who wrote the players guide, but if it's official then that's good enough for me.

Khamul and The Witch-king do explicitly say during the Org phase, but there's nothing to suggest this can't be in addition to the 1 normal character per turn. I guess whether this is possible or not depends on how the playing of RW followers is viewed.  Their abilities are always active and so should be able to bring a RW follower into play during the Org phase anytime the condition is met.  This is also extended to include Uvatha, since his text says "He may join another RW's company during your Org phase and requires no DI to control."

Open to the Summons and Black Horse don't even mention a phase, so presmuably, like ACM and WHCtK it should be allowed to occur whenever the condition is met to be able play the agent character or RW follower.
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

Wacho
Moderator
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:56 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Wacho » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:46 pm

The Player's Guides are official ICE publications.  That isn't to say they are official ICE rules, but they certainly were looked over by their rules wizards.  In fact Craig "Ichabod" O'Brian was one of the primary authors of the METW player's guide.  He was generally viewed as the primary rules wizard during the ICE era, I believe.  So since this does appear to be the official ICE interpretation of the card, and continued to be so until ICE's demise (as we can see from Van's ruling in digest #585 (I think that's the right number)) I don't think we should change anything with respect to these cards.

That isn't to say I think that the language on ACM or even WHCtK should be our guide to how to read cards.  The other cards mentioned are in my opinion much better written as they specifically say when they can be played.  The only one that leaves anything open is Open to the Summons.  But in general I think that for a card to override rules it needs to be specific.  In this case Open to the Summons overrides the rule about not playing agents at Darkhavens, since it says nothing about in addition to normal character, or during some other phase I think the rules for character play stay in effect.

User avatar
|Highwayman|
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:16 am
Location: Poland

Post by |Highwayman| » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:13 pm

Wacho wrote:That isn't to say I think that the language on ACM or even WHCtK should be our guide to how to read cards.  The other cards mentioned are in my opinion much better written as they specifically say when they can be played.  The only one that leaves anything open is Open to the Summons.  But in general I think that for a card to override rules it needs to be specific.  In this case Open to the Summons overrides the rule about not playing agents at Darkhavens, since it says nothing about in addition to normal character, or during some other phase I think the rules for character play stay in effect.
Following this logic we should change something - either A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill, or everything else. The one thing I want the most (and to achieve that I'm willing to go all the way) is the rules to be consistent. We can't have have card A work according to rules X this way and card B according to the same rules work in another way - which is unfortunately what we have now (and not only in case of  A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill to make matters worse).
I belive it is our duty - as players, respective national Council memebers and CoE members - to fix things like this.
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:14 pm

The problem is that ICE did want Chance Meeting to be played that way (that portion of the Player's Guide should probably be stickied somewhere since it is the only positive evidence on that subject, and most people don't own a Player's Guide) -- the others are much more limited (which is why I think the Strider ruling is bogus -- there's no functional difference between "Aragorn II may be played" and "an agent may be played").

I'll happily say that Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill are completely broken -- if somebody wants to make a UEP, I'll be one of the first to give an enthusiastic yes -- but they're unfortunately legal based on the combination of the Player's Guide and Van's ruling.  There's no wiggle room. :(

User avatar
|Highwayman|
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:16 am
Location: Poland

Post by |Highwayman| » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:47 pm

I would really like to see that portion of the Player's Guide
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

User avatar
|Highwayman|
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:16 am
Location: Poland

Post by |Highwayman| » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:35 pm

|Highwayman| wrote:I would really like to see that portion of the Player's Guide
does anyone have this Player's Guide and is willing to quote it here? (the relevant parts)
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

Wacho
Moderator
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:56 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Wacho » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:06 am

The Middle Earth Wizard's Players Guide states:
A Chance Meeting allows you to play a character outside of the organization phase and/or bring in an additional character in one turn....

User avatar
|Highwayman|
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:16 am
Location: Poland

Post by |Highwayman| » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:17 am

thanks for the quote Wacho :)

well, people who wrote that must have agreed with the rulings ICE made for A Chance Meeting

but it doesn't mean that we have to agree with it too - I know it's a big and dangerous step to clearly out rule what ICE 'set in stone'
but for the sake of consistency and game balance I think we should take matters into our own hands


I guess some people will say - "no need to change the rules, let's make an UEP"
maybe that's not such a bad idea, I mean even though I don't see much point in the Balrog 2-minder UEP it is widely accepted so in time maybe an UEP about A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill would also come to be widely accepted
but I don't want to throw this problem into one bag with all the other UEP's as some of them 'went wild' - there are a lot of UEP's made for the sole purpose of making some plays harder or easier and not really fixing something that's broken (and I believe an 'errata', even an unofficial one, should fix broken stuff and not make plays we like possible or easier to do and plays we don't like impossible or harder to pull of)
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

Jambo
Moderator
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Highwayman attacks! - Bringing Characters into Play

Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:47 pm

|Highwayman| wrote:
Thrall of the Voice
stage resource - permanent-event
Mind:  -1
SP:  1
Description:  Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind.  Place this card with the character.  -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1.  Such a character may also be in your starting company.
overrides the fallen-wizard restrictions of character playability - allows to play a character with a mind of 6 witch is normally impossible for a fallen-wizard player to do and/or allows to play an orc/troll character without any other stage resources required for it
It's funny, but you mention that TotV overrides FW restrictions on orcs and trolls, and yet all I can see from the card is that it clearly overrides the mind restriction and the restriction regarding agents.
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:02 pm

I'd say that it does not override anything.
It repleaces definition of character that woukd be normally played with its own definition. Orcs and Trolls with mind 6 or less just fits that definition.
This card is not specifically designed for playing Orcs and Trolls.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Jambo
Moderator
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:13 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:I'd say that it does not override anything.
It repleaces definition of character that woukd be normally played with its own definition. Orcs and Trolls with mind 6 or less just fits that definition.
This card is not specifically designed for playing Orcs and Trolls.
I realise that, but what I'm postulating is that its own definition doesn't enable Orcs and Trolls to be played. Strictly speaking the restriction isn't alleviated by the card's text.

TotV allows 'such' characters to be included in the starting company, and yet the crf then states that this doesn't override characters that explicitly say they can't be part of a starting company. Moreover, orcs and trolls cannot be part of a starting company unless Bad Company is in play...
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:20 pm

White Hand, Special Orc & Troll Rules wrote:• You may not play Orc and Troll characters until you have played the appropriate card (e.g., Bad Company).
"You may not play", not "you may not have".
New definition is "one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind." That is used instead normal.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Darksatin
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:04 pm
Location: Lyon, France

Post by Darksatin » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:51 pm

From COE Rulings Digest #39 :
Is that true? Can you play Orcs and Trolls with Thrall of the Voice even if Bad Company isn't in play?
*** It's true. Brian ruled that, and I support the ruling.

From COE Rulings Digest #50 :
Ok, just so I'm sure on this, with the exception of Orcs and Trolls a Fallen-wizard can start with any character in their company including Agents? Or is Thrall of the voice or open to the summons the only ways to start with one in a starting company.
***  Agents require Open to the Summons.  Orcs and Trolls require Bad Company or Thrall of the Voice.

From COE Rulings Digest #98 :
Why does Thrall of the Voice supersedes the White Hand ruleset by allowing the play of Orcs and Trolls?
*** If it isn't there, it isn't there. Thrall of the Voice says to bring into play a character. An orc or a troll is a character. If it stated something to the effect of the play needing to be otherwise legal, then Orcs and Trolls could not be played with Thrall of the Voice without Bad Company in play.

Jambo
Moderator
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:28 pm

Yes I am very aware of the 'rulings'.  The premise of if it isn't there, it isn't there, could just as easily (and more appropriately) be used for the counter-argument.  Orcs and trolls (unlike agents I hasten to add) aren't clearly defined as being included.  That restriction hasn't been clearly obviated.

TotV allows a character, and yes orcs and trolls are characters, but the White Hand Rules prohibit the playing of orcs and trolls without an appropriate card. The only card that explicitly allows orcs and trolls to be played and included as part of a starting company is Bad Company.  If agents were included as a matter of course by the simple definition of 'character', why include including a minion agent in parentheses as part of the card's text?

Only in another thread did Konrad post the following:
Konrad wrote:We Have Come To Kill is not per se a card that allows for playing RW followers. Similarly this card solely is not enough for playing of Orcs or Trolls by FW player. However Orcs and Trolls may be played with it as long as it is otherwise legal.
WHCtK simply specifies 'character', so why doesn't it also allow the play of orcs and trolls in FW companies? If it isn't there, it isn't there... so to speak...
Last edited by Jambo on Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

Post Reply