Highwayman attacks! - Bringing Characters into Play

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:39 pm

If text of Thrall of the Voice would be:
"during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind...." (without "Instead of a normal character"), then Thrall of the Voice would work as you (you = Jambo) are suggesting.
"including a minion agent" is used to indicate that general rules, where character can be played, are also replaced. Normally agent characters may be played only at its home sites and cannot be in starting company.
Why you are not asking what is meaning of phrase "Instead of a normal character"?
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Post by |Highwayman| » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:45 pm

last time I checked 'normal' ment in MECCG - "as according to rules without any extra effects"

and as Tharall says "instead of a normal character" you can generaly throw all the rules in the trash and just do whatever the following text of Thrall lets you to do :P, which is "bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind"  and orcs and troll fit here as long as they have mind of 6 or less
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

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Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:55 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:If text of Thrall of the Voice would be:
"during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind...." (without "Instead of a normal character"), then Thrall of the Voice would work as you (you = Jambo) are suggesting.
"including a minion agent" is used to indicate that general rules, where character can be played, are also replaced. Normally agent characters may be played only at its home sites and cannot be in starting company.
Why you are not asking what is meaning of phrase "Instead of a normal character"?
You are reading more into this than the card states. A normal character for FW is based on several character-playing limitations:

1st. Mind limit of 5
2nd. Agents
3rd. Orcs and trolls

TotV clearly removes the 'normal' 5-mind restriction and the 'normal' restriction of agents. It does nothing to the 3rd.
Last edited by Jambo on Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:19 pm

Jambo wrote:A normal character for FW is linked to several character-playing limitations:

1st. Mind limit of 5
2nd. Agents
3rd. Orcs and trolls
Right. 1st and 3rd are characters who cannot be normally played at all, 2nd are characters who can be normally played but only at its home sites and not in starting company.

Part "one character [] with up to a 6 mind" replaces rules saying "who" may be played.
Part "(including a minion agent)" replaces rules saying "where" and "when" can be played.
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Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:22 pm

Right, so there's no removing of the orcs and trolls limitation. Part one only removes the 5-mind limitation. If it isn't there, it isn't there, to quote a popular phrase.

The card wouldn't have made much sense had it been written:

"Instead of a character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. Such a character may also be in your starting company."

The "instead of" part simply makes reference that you cannot bring into play a normal character and then bring into play a character under Thrall of the Voice.
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Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:39 pm

|Highwayman| wrote:last time I checked 'normal' ment in MECCG - "as according to rules without any extra effects"

and as Tharall says "instead of a normal character" you can generaly throw all the rules in the trash and just do whatever the following text of Thrall lets you to do :P, which is "bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind"  and orcs and troll fit here as long as they have mind of 6 or less
This is true Highwayman, but in the list of things that are subsequently being allowed instead of a 'normal' character, one of them isn't an orc or troll. One is a character up to 6 mind, and the other is an agent not at its homesite (and as part of a starting company). Those are the only two 'normal' rules being superseded.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:44 pm

If it isn't there, it isn't there, to quote a popular phrase.

Yea! But what is at the start of the text if not Instead of a normal character?

There is difference between removing only one limitation and repleacing all limitations with its own limitations (mind upto 6 is a limitation).

You don't want accept existence of Instead of a normal character.
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Post by Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:09 pm

I have nothing against the wording and accept it. It wouldn't make much sense without it.

I've said this already, but instead of a normal character means instead of a character governed by the WH rules. It goes on to say what the new limitations/conditions for this character are - the character is governed by a 6-mind restriction and/or doesn't have to abide by the agent restriction.  Orcs and trolls aren't allowed as a 'normal' character and still aren't allowed by the new conditions as stated by the rest of TotV's text!  Therefore by definition, or rather lack thereof, orcs and trolls still cannot be played.

You are using the word 'character' to bypass restrictions which inherently haven't been overridden. Otherwise, what's to prevent WHCtK bringing in a 2-mind orc?  Furthermore, why bother with the inference of "including minion agent"? By your definition that would already have been circumvented by 'instead of a normal character'.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:06 am

Jambo wrote:Orcs and trolls aren't allowed as a 'normal' character and still aren't allowed by the new conditions as stated by the rest of TotV's text!  Therefore by definition, or rather lack thereof, orcs and trolls still cannot be played.
Elves and Dwarves are also not allowed explicitly by the new definition.
Anyway definition "one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind." is capacious enough.
Fact that Trolls/Orcs fit that definition is side effect. Thrall of the Voice is not card specifically designed for playing Trolls/Orcs.
That races are not explicitly mentioned in card's text. If in your opinion this means that Trolls/Orcs cannot be played with Thrall of the Voice (without other effects), nothing can convice you.
You may be convicing others (including me) for your interpretation.
Jambo wrote:You are using the word 'character' to bypass restrictions which inherently haven't been overridden. Otherwise, what's to prevent WHCtK bringing in a 2-mind orc?
In my opinion: lack of word "any" before "character". Otherwise even 9 mind Orc or Troll could be played with WHCtK by FW.
Jambo wrote:Furthermore, why bother with the inference of "including minion agent"? By your definition that would already have been circumvented by 'instead of a normal character'.
Which characters can be played and which characters may be in play are separate things.
By MELE rules (used by WH for agents) agents cannot be included in starting company. There is no such limitation for Orcs/Trolls. They merely cannot be played.
Thrall of the Voice does not change company composition rules, nor rules on uniques..
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Post by Jambo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:36 am

Konrad Klar wrote: Elves and Dwarves are also not allowed explicitly by the new definition.
Why ever not?  Come now - they're not explicitly prohibited by the WH rules. Therefore they fall under the term character by default. The card isn't going to list everything already allowed.
Konrad Klar wrote:Anyway definition "one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind." is capacious enough.
Fact that Trolls/Orcs fit that definition is side effect.

What about RWs, RW followers, Wizards, your avatar? These are 'characters' - are these just happy side effects?
Konrad Klar wrote:Thrall of the Voice is not card specifically designed for playing Trolls/Orcs.
That races are not explicitly mentioned in card's text.
I know you didn't mean this phrase this way.  But I agree - Thrall of the Voice is not designed for playing orcs and trolls. ;)  Bad Company is.
Konrad Klar wrote:In my opinion: lack of word "any" before "character". Otherwise even 9 mind Orc or Troll could be played with WHCtK by FW.
Now we're getting into silly realms. The word 'any' in card texts has caused issues across the board, and NetReps rule on what this means on a case by case basis. Ref Buthrakaur the Green for example.

You also posted this in the NetRep forum:
Konrad Klar wrote:We Have Come To Kill is not per se a card that allows for playing RW followers. Similarly this card solely is not enough for playing of Orcs or Trolls by FW player. However Orcs and Trolls may be played with it as long as it is otherwise legal.
Here you even advocate that WHCtK cannot be used to circumvent the orc/troll restriction. Both me and miguel agreed. You would need to be able to legally play a RW follower (e.g. Khamul's ability) or an orc and troll (e.g. Bad Company) to be able to use WHCtK to bring into play one of those characters.
Konrad Klar wrote:Which characters can be played and which characters may be in play are separate things.
By MELE rules (used by WH for agents) agents cannot be included in starting company. There is no such limitation for Orcs/Trolls. They merely cannot be played.
Thrall of the Voice does not change company composition rules, nor rules on uniques..
If orcs and trolls cannot be played, then by definition they cannot be included in a starting company. The text on Bad Company would support this.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:18 am

Jambo wrote:What about RWs, RW followers, Wizards, your avatar? These are 'characters' - are these just happy side effects?
...without mind attribute, does not fit new definition - character with mind up to 6.
Jambo wrote:Here you even advocate that WHCtK cannot be used to circumvent the orc/troll restriction. Both me and miguel agreed. You would need to be able to legally play a RW follower (e.g. Khamul's ability) or an orc and troll (e.g. Bad Company) to be able to use WHCtK to bring into play one of those characters.
Yes. WHCtK does not create its new definition of character that may be played.
Jambo wrote:Now we're getting into silly realms. The word 'any' in card texts has caused issues across the board, and NetReps rule on what this means on a case by case basis. Ref Buthrakaur the Green for example.
Yes. I agree with that rulings. I think that I've carefully checked cards that allows playing characters for presence of this word.
Jambo wrote:Why ever not?  Come now - they're not explicitly prohibited by the WH rules. Therefore they fall under the term character by default. The card isn't going to list everything already allowed.
None of races is mentioned in Thrall of the Voice. If any particular race would be listed it would mean that Thrall of the Voice is limited to playing characters with listed races.
Of course such pondering makes any sense only if assuming that Thrall of the Voice repleaces normal restrictions with its own restrictions.  
My impression is that you are believing that it just adds some extra possibilities (agents, mind up to six) to the normal restrictions, and rest of restrictions are preserved.

I think that this is actual moot point.

EDIT: corrected typo.
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Post by Vastor Peredhil » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:40 am

Well I believe there is not even the slightest hole in Jambo's argumentation

normal means (for TohV) as in the Wh rulesbook...
then it gives the new limitations

which are up to 6 mind
and even an agent

without Bad company in play orcs & trolls do nort fit the definition for TohV


Konrad, sorry to say but you are missing the point I believe.

(except for: What about RWs, RW followers, Wizards, your avatar? These are 'characters' - are these just happy side effects?  
...without mind attribute, does not fit new definition - character with mind up to 6. ) on which you were of course correct

I am sick of argueing about stuff like that, there are plenty of different more complex situations which need all our attention then this clear stated card.

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Post by Jambo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:49 am

Orcs and trolls don't fit the new definitions/conditions because their rules in the WH insert aren't being overridden.  That is the whole point.

If there weren't rules in the WH insert expressly prohibiting their play then I'd agree with you. Likewise WHCtK would then be able to bring into play any orc or troll with up to 5 mind.

Let's put it to you another way.  If Bad Company is out, and you play WHCtK, can you play an orc or troll with greater than 5 mind?  It would fit the new definition of 'character', and there's no mention of a mind limitation on the card...

I'd say no, based on the logic that the 5 mind limitation hasn't explicitly been superseded by the card's text.

You'll no doubt bring me back to the 'instead of a normal character' part.  WHCtK doesn't bend the normal character playing rules for minion other than where (and arguably when) the characters may be played, e.g. gone are homesite and/or darkhaven and in come Bh, R&L and Sh.  On top of this WHCtK allows you to play a character in addition to the 1 character per turn rule. So there's no reason to state "instead of ..."

TotV also shouldn't override the WH rules for playing characters unless it explicitly says so. Therefore, "instead of" means that the character can't be played in "addition to" another character and that subsequent conditions will replace existing WH rules for the new character.  The new limitations/conditions which replace the existing ones are then given, and the rules prohibiting orcs and trolls, unlike agents' homesite, haven't been superseded by the new conditions. You still haven't answered the query as to why agents have even been included in these conditions, when by your reasoning their homesite restriction would have already been removed by the first part of TotV...
(except for: What about RWs, RW followers, Wizards, your avatar? These are 'characters' - are these just happy side effects?  
...without mind attribute, does not fit new definition - character with mind up to 6. ) on which you were of course correct

Disclaimer - just to point out that I didn't actually agree with this statement! It was used to put a point across.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:43 am

Jambo wrote:You'll no doubt bring me back to the 'instead of a normal character' part.  WHCtK doesn't bend the normal character playing rules for minion other than where (and arguably when) the characters may be played, e.g. gone are homesite and/or darkhaven and in come Bh, R&L and Sh.  On top of this WHCtK allows you to play a character in addition to the 1 character per turn rule. So there's no reason to state "instead of ..."
You must reconcile this theory with text of Open To The Summons (why no "instead of ..."  there? Is agent played with OTTS extra character?).
Jambo wrote:You still haven't answered the query as to why agents have even been included in these conditions, when by your reasoning their homesite restriction would have already been removed by the first part of TotV..
I've already answered it:

Which characters can be played and which characters may be in play are separate things.
By MELE rules (used by WH for agents) agents cannot be included in starting company. There is no such limitation for Orcs/Trolls. They merely cannot be played.
Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, Getting Ready To Play wrote:# Place one to six starting minion characters (no Ringwraiths, no minion agents from Dark Minions) face down in front of you. The combined mind attributes (see Mind) of these characters must be 20 or less. You and your opponent reveal your characters simultaneously, placing any duplicated characters into your play decks. Then organize your starting characters into followers and companies and place them at Minas Morgul (i.e., place a Minas Morgul site card next to them).
Underline mine.

+
CRF, Rulings by Term, Fallen wrote:Fallen-wizards use Ringwraith rules for agents.
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Post by Jambo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:22 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:You must reconcile this theory with text of Open To The Summons (why no "instead of ..."  there? Is agent played with OTTS extra character?).

This is a good point, and hence why there's a topic currently open on the NetRep discussion board.
Konrad Klar wrote: I've already answered it:

Which characters can be played and which characters may be in play are separate things.
By MELE rules (used by WH for agents) agents cannot be included in starting company. There is no such limitation for Orcs/Trolls. They merely cannot be played.
That is not answering the question. Remember TotV is not solely for playing characters during the character pool, although that is the most common use. There's nothing to stop someone playing TotV during the course of a game.  

The fact orcs and trolls cannot be played means they cannot be played as part of the starting company. I completely fail to see how you're not seeing that limitation. As I've said before, read the text on Bad Company - it makes reference to that very fact.
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