Changing region type...

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TedPikul
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Changing region type...

Post by TedPikul » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:39 pm

Hi, sorry, another question, can i change the region type after a hazard creature is played? If yes, what happens with the hazard, discarded? canceled? goes back to the hazard's player hand? The company is considered to have faced the attack or not?

Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:50 pm

MELE Rules, Hazard Cards, Non-Event wrote: Creature Cards

You may use a creature card to directly attack one of your opponent's companies. Such an attack can occur only if one of the following criterion is met:

· The company is at a specific site at which the creature's card text says it can be played.

· The company's site of origin or new site is in a region where the creature's card text says it can be played.

· One of the site symbols on the creature's card matches the site that the company moved to (i.e., the new site) or stayed at (i.e., if the company did not move).

· At least one of the region symbols on the creature's card matches one of the region types the company moved through this turn (see below). If the creature's card has two region symbols of the same type (i.e., a deep Wilderness creature), then the company must have moved through at least two regions of that same type.
As I see it, there are two possibilities:

1) If you declare the play of a card which will change the region type in response to the declaration of a hazard creature, then the region type change will resolve before the creature attack can be created by the resolution of its card, causing the hazard creature to "fizzle," i.e. it is discarded without effect (I believe it still counts against the hazard limit).

2) If you try to change the region/site type after the card has resolved, i.e. when your company is actually facing the attack from the card, then it is too late -- the attack(s) have already been keyed, so to speak.

In the case of 1), the company is not considered to have faced the attack because no attack was ever created in the first place.  In the case of 2) the point is moot because changing the region does not affect the attack in the slightest.

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Post by Jambo » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:15 am

For 1, there's also the question as to whether the creature card fizzles or is simply returned to the opponent's hand. A card that's not playable cannot be played. Does that really mean it fizzles in the above case?
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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:59 pm

A hazard card which cannot be played due to the hazard limit being reduced is not returned to the player's hand.  I believe that a creature card which can no longer be keyed due to the region/site changing is also not returned to the player's hand.

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Post by Jambo » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:04 pm

Hi Ben,

Yeah I realise how it is played, my point was more whether it is right...  Is there a CoE ruling to that effect?
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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:50 pm

CRF, Rulings by Term, Active Conditions wrote:Annotation 7: If any other active condition for an action does not exist when the action is resolved, the action has no effect; if the action was playing a card from your hand, it is discarded.
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Post by Jambo » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:53 pm

Thanks Konrad.
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon May 19, 2008 4:39 am

Another question: let's say I move through 3 wildernesses, and my opponent plays a cavedrake, keying it to two wildernesess. In response, I play Master of Wood water and hill, changing one wilderness he picked to something else. Does the creature fizzle? Or no, because the haz player does not actually "pick" regions, he simply checks to see if there's enough legal regions in the path, and in this card, there was 3 wildernesses (one more than needed), so master is not enough to stop the cavedrake.

This is important!

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Post by Sauron_the_Great » Mon May 19, 2008 1:19 pm

AFAIK (and as we play it...), the cave-drake just wants to have enough wildenesses in the company's site path...so just two wilderness are required, regardless how many and which regions are between them...

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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon May 19, 2008 11:37 pm

Just to confirm--so the CaveDrake would successfully attack, right?

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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 20, 2008 1:30 am

I believe so -- just as a creature keyable to both ruins and lairs and shadow-holds will still attack if choking shadows is played in response.

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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue May 20, 2008 5:33 am

But Ben, that's not true at all--the hazard player must pick a type to key his creature too. He can't pick "all types".

Frodo

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Post by Jambo » Tue May 20, 2008 12:57 pm

Frodo wrote:But Ben, that's not true at all--the hazard player must pick a type to key his creature too. He can't pick "all types".

Frodo
Right. For a cave-drake, the hazard player must specify whether it's being keyed to a Ruins & Lairs or a double wildnerness.

The same logic can be used for Frodo's original point. If a player keys the cave-drake to a double wilderness and the company is moving through 3 wilderness, then you'd need to change two of them to prevent the double wilderness from still being there.
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 20, 2008 4:31 pm

MELE Rules wrote:Creature Cards

You may use a creature card to directly attack one of your opponent's companies. Such an attack can occur only if one of the following criterion is met:
· The company is at a specific site at which the creature's card text says it can be played.
· The company's site of origin or new site is in a region where the creature's card text says it can be played.
· One of the site symbols on the creature's card matches the site that the company moved to (i.e., the new site) or stayed at (i.e., if the company did not move).
(. . .)
If a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these conditions that the attack is "keyed to." The effects of certain cards are based upon the region or site type that a creature is keyed to.(. . .)

Clarification: The player playing a hazard creature must specifically state the type of region or site that a creature is keyed to - it can affect the use of other cards.
If I have chosen "one of the site symbols matches" condition and someone changes the site to a symbol that also matches, then when when the creature card resolves (i.e. comes into play) then the original playing condition is till valid.

It's true that I have to state the type that it is keyed to, but it occurs when the creature resolves, not when it is played, as far as I know.  In the case of creatures with multiple attacks, I am certain that keyability is not checked before each attack according to the CoE, but only when a creature card is played and when it resolves.

The only way to prevent such a creature play is by changing the site to a type that does not match -- you can't switch which condition you have chosen.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 20, 2008 11:56 pm

# The company is at a specific site at which the creature's card text says it can be played.
# The company's site of origin or new site is in a region where the creature's card text says it can be played.
# One of the site symbols on the creature's card matches the site that the company moved to (i.e., the new site) or stayed at (i.e., if the company did not move).
# At least one of the region symbols on the creature's card matches one of the region types the company moved through this turn (see below). If the creature's card has two region symbols of the same type (i.e., a deep Wilderness creature), then the company must have moved through at least two regions of that same type.

Note: The Geann a-Lisch site is a Darkhaven. However, as stated on its card, creatures keyed to Ruins & Lairs may be played against a company that has Geann a-Lisch as its new site or as its current site, if it did not move.

Clarification: Two Wilderness symbols are required in a site path to play a deep Wilderness creature. However, the two symbols need not be adjacent in the site path. For example, a deep Wilderness creature may be played keyed to the site path: WBBW. If a company travels with two Wilderness in its site path, the chance of encountering very dangerous Wilderness monsters has doubled, even if the two Wildernesses are not adjacent.

If a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these criterion that the attack is "keyed to." The effects of certain cards are based upon the region or site type that a creature is keyed to.
Full version of rule quoted by Bandobras Took.

Reading in this fashion
# At least one of the region symbols on the creature's card matches one of the region types the company moved through this turn (see below). If the creature's card has two region symbols of the same type (i.e., a deep Wilderness creature), then the company must have moved through at least two regions of that same type.
someone could say (playing Orc-Guard): I choose condition:  "At least one of the region symbols on the creature's card matches one of the region types the company moved through..." and now it will be sufficient if at least one  :s: or one :d: will be on path.
Defender would need Stars and two copies of Quiet Lands (or Master of Wood, Water, or Hill) to fizzle Orc-Guard if company is moving from Mount Gundabad to Zarak Dum.
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