Changing region type...

Ask any question regarding the game's (official) rules

Moderators: Jambo, Moderators

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed May 21, 2008 3:46 am

I agree.  You would need to make sure that there are no possible keyable regions when the Creature Card resolves in order to keep it from being played.

Jambo
Moderator
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Post by Jambo » Wed May 21, 2008 6:32 am

But if the creature can be keyed to either region(s) or the site, then hazard player has to specify regions vs site.
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed May 21, 2008 1:02 pm

Yes, and once that's done, you cannot change it.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed May 21, 2008 5:53 pm

Lidless Eye wrote:Clarification: The player playing a hazard creature must specifically state the type of region or site that the creature is keyed to - it can affect the use of other cards.

For example, if a character with a Shadow-cloak faces a strike from a creature that has been played keyed to a Shadow-land, he can tap the Shadow-cloak to cancel the strike. However, if the creature is keyed to Border-land, he cannot use his cloak against it.
Underline mine.

Why you, Ben, are maintaining that such specifically stating of region or site that the creature is keyed to may be done at resolution, not at declaration of creature (when creature is played)?
Where is justification for such two stage process of choosing keyability (first - general: region/region symbols/site, second - specifical: exact type of region symbol/type of site)?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed May 21, 2008 8:48 pm

Because that rule has to do with affecting the use of other cards.  It has nothing to do with declaring creature play.  As long as a creature meets one of those four conditions, it can attack.  Deciding at resolution is semantic; a card is not "in play" until it resolves.  Once it is in play, you must decide specifically.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed May 21, 2008 9:15 pm

Phrase:
Clarification: The player playing a hazard creature must specifically state the type of region or site that the creature is keyed to - it can affect the use of other cards.
exists in context of whole chapter Playing and Drawing Cards, Creature Cards.
It is not preceded by "when creature resolves" or "if above conditions are met, then.." or similar.
I don't see anything suggesting that choosing keyability to regions/region symbols/site and specifing exact type of region/symbol/site (if more than one matches) are separate actions.

Shadow Cloak is one example. Cards played in response (to fizzle creature) also depends on specified region/region symbol/site type.
Targets and other things, like alternative or first effect are also decided at declaration. I don't know any "semantic" that disprove this fact.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed May 21, 2008 10:32 pm

Put another way, there is nothing in that clarification that states when it occurs and indeed, what happens if the statement is rendered useless by a change in the site.  So long as a creature card meets the bulleted requirement you have chosen, it can be used to attack.

So I'm applying a bit of common sense.

Scenario if one must specify on declaration:

Company is moving to Moria, a shadow-hold.

Hazard player plays Orc-Lieutenant because site type matches and keys the attack to a shadow-hold.

Resource player plays Quiet Lands to change Moria to a Ruins & Lairs.

Result -- attack is no longer keyed to a shadow-hold, but has not fizzled.  This is because a creature card according to the rules may attack if one of the symbols on its card matches the site, and one of the symbols does indeed match the site, but the attack is no longer keyed to anything (is there are a rule that a hazard creature attack must be keyed to something?  No, because otherwise orcs/trolls played after Uma would have to be keyed to something.  Game effects can override normal keying rules) because the original keying statement has been "fizzled," as it were, by Quiet Lands.

Scenario if one specifies on Resolution:

No big long paragraph, the attack proceeds as normal.

There's certainly a gap in the rules, though -- a creature whose specific keying has failed can still attack so long as it meets the requirements listed on whichever one of the bullet points one has chosen.

On the other hand, changing the site type in response to the declaration of a card like Dragon's Desolation would prevent a Dragon from being played because the effect of Dragon's Desolation would no longer be valid.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed May 21, 2008 11:13 pm

This is self-proving conception, based on idea that specifing exact region/site symbol is decision separate from specifing that creature will be played keyed to site, or region, or region symbol.
I cannot remember at this moment any rule or example from outside, that would dent it.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Jambo
Moderator
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Post by Jambo » Thu May 22, 2008 11:53 am

I'm not sure on that Ben. The hazard player has to key a creature to something when it's declared. The conditions still have to be valid upon resolution and if upon resolution the keyed region or site non longer exists the creature card fizzles.

A player playing a cave-drake can key the drake to a double ww or ruins & lairs.

If keyed to site, one can play Not a Home to cancel the drake.
If keyed to double ww one can use Elf-cloak to cancel a strike.  
If the company is moving through www then changing one region type won't prevent the drake from attacking, as it's been keyed to ww and a ww still exists.  If there was only two ww is site path then changing one would fizzle the drake.
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu May 22, 2008 12:48 pm

Problem is rather whether one can play Rain-Drake keyed to company's path ( :c:, or  :w: :w: :w:, - one must be present at declaration, any one must be present at resolution),
or whether he must choose specifically :c:, or  :w: :w: :w: at declaration (and cannot change :c: to :w: :w: :w: at resolution).

I believe that second is correct. Ben (if I understand correctly) believes that first is correct.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 22, 2008 1:47 pm

Konrad is correct; I believe the first proposition is what is supported by the rules.
Jambo wrote:I'm not sure on that Ben. The hazard player has to key a creature to something when it's declared. The conditions still have to be valid upon resolution and if upon resolution the keyed region or site non longer exists the creature card fizzles.
Yes, I'm not contesting that as such.
A player playing a cave-drake can key the drake to a double ww or ruins & lairs.

If keyed to site, one can play Not a Home to cancel the drake.
If keyed to double ww one can use Elf-cloak to cancel a strike.  
If the company is moving through www then changing one region type won't prevent the drake from attacking, as it's been keyed to ww and a ww still exists.  If there was only two ww is site path then changing one would fizzle the drake.
I also agree with this.

But the rules state that for a creature card to attack the company, one of the region symbols must match (two for a deep creature) or one of the site symbols must match.  Which one must be chosen on declaration.  So long as that choice is still valid on resolution, the creature may attack.  You must also state the specific type in this instance, but this has nothing to do with whether the creature can still attack on resolution of its card.  The Cave-drake is a poor choice for an example of what I am saying.  Instead, lets say a company is moving to Mount Gundabad through Angmar and Gundabad and I play Orc-guard because one of the Region types matches.  I specify the Shadow-Land for some odd reason.  The resource player responds by changing the Shadow-Land to a Wilderness somehow.  When the creature card resolves, I go to the rule book and check whether the creature can still attack the company.  One of the regions (the Dark-Domain of Gundabad) still matches a Region type on the card.  The play requirement is still valid, but the specific keying is no longer valid.  This unfortunately has nothing to do with whether the hazard can attack the company.

That's my argument for stating that either one must specify the actual type on resolution of a creature card or that the creature card is not actually keyed to anything if the type is changed to something else.

Jambo
Moderator
Posts: 988
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Post by Jambo » Fri May 23, 2008 8:29 am

I don't think it's any different to be honest.

With Orc-guard, if I key them to Shadow-land and my opponent changes the region type to wilderness, then bang, the creature fizzles, even if there is a Dark-domain in the site path.

There's also the issue of detainment vs non-detainment and therefore keying a creature to one of its possible regions must occur for this to happen.
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri May 23, 2008 8:36 pm

With Orc-guard, if I key them to Shadow-land and my opponent changes the region type to wilderness, then bang, the creature fizzles, even if there is a Dark-domain in the site path.
But what is your reasoning for this?  The creature by rule can attack so long as one of the Regions in the site path matches one of the regions on the creature card.
There's also the issue of detainment vs non-detainment and therefore keying a creature to one of its possible regions must occur for this to happen.
And an attack not keyed to anything may or may not be detainment; for example, orcs played after Buthrakaur the Green.

But there's still nothing mentioned so far that overrides the rules for attacking with a creature.  Fizzling keying is not the same thing as fizzling the attack.  Specifying site/region type is necessary for certain effects etc., but by rule a creature may still attack if the specification is rendered invalid.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri May 23, 2008 9:28 pm

Wording of Playing and Drawing Cards, Creature Cards chapter leaves much to be desired.
There is not any distinction between moment when creature is declared and when it is resolved. In fact words "declared" and "resolved" are not used at all. Words "play" and "attack" are used and they are used interchangeably.
Some fragments, like:
At least one of the region symbols on the creature's card matches one of the region types the company moved through this turn (see below)
makes reference to "turn", when it is obvious that it should refer to "M/H phase".
In such situation making assumption that:
Clarification: The player playing a hazard creature must specifically state the type of region or site that the creature is keyed to - it can affect the use of other cards.
is referring to the moment when creature is resolved (and it is not just clarification to the whole rough explanation) is audacious idea.

And it is hard to rebut for the same reasons: rough explanation does not give solid ground for it.

My approach is different. How are consequences? What Ben's idea changes in the current style of playing creatures?
It makes creatures that may be played keyed to the multiple dirfferent region symbols not only playable in wide range of regions. It also makes them harder to fizzle.
Longer paths becomes more dengerous not only because "chance of encountering very dangerous Wilderness [or Shadowlands] monsters has doubled" . Also because changing type of one region in response to creature card is not sufficient to avoid creature if hazard player has pool of backup options.
Cards like Stars, The Evenstar, Master of Wind, Water, or Hill becomes useless if not used in two, three copies combos (each of these cards has its own additional conditions - Gates of Morning, or tapping sage). Cost of fizzling creatures keyable to multiple different region symbols becomes huge (on longer paths).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 24, 2008 4:32 am

Konrad Klar wrote:Wording of Playing and Drawing Cards, Creature Cards chapter leaves much to be desired.
I fully agree with that; this would probably be a good one to send to the NetRep team.

Post Reply