Character reorganization

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Jose-san
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Character reorganization

Post by Jose-san » Thu May 08, 2008 2:38 pm

Hi,

If a character controls a follower and by any means his DI is reduced, does he still control the follower until the next organization phase? Or does he lose control of the follower inmediately (occuping more GI)?

Thanks,
Jose-san

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Shapeshifter
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Post by Shapeshifter » Thu May 08, 2008 6:52 pm

The character is immediately removed from DI, and put under GI. If your GI is exceeded because of this then you have time until your next orga-phase to reorganize your companies. The character is not discarded until the end of your next orga-phase.

stone troll
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Post by stone troll » Thu May 08, 2008 8:28 pm

I believe the ruling is that the character is removed from DI but does not count against GI until the next org phase.

IIRC, cards that increase mind (like Diminish & Depart) take effect immediately for purposes of GI calculation, but the player has until the next org phase to rectify GI for the purposes of controlling characters.

However, say your company has Diminish & Depart played on it and the GI is then > 20, then a subsequent Call of Home or Muster Disperses would result in a +0 to the roll (no free GI).

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri May 09, 2008 5:10 am

CRF, Rulings by Term, Influence wrote:A character removed from the control of direct influence outside the organization phase does not need to be controlled by general influence until that player's next organization phase.
So mind of character removed from control of DI outside organization phase does not have any impact on GI (until its player's next organization phase).
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Shapeshifter
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Post by Shapeshifter » Fri May 09, 2008 7:25 pm

Oh, so I recalled incorrectly. :oops:
Sorry!

Jose-san
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Post by Jose-san » Sat May 10, 2008 6:53 pm

Wouldn't it be easier if the follower wasn't removed inmediately from DI? Or if removing him affected GI? I find this quite counter-intuitive :(

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Sat May 10, 2008 8:48 pm

Maybe...
I don't know idea behind this rule too.
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 10, 2008 8:49 pm

After a few rules debates, I can assure you that pretty much the entire game is counterintuitive.  :)

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Post by Konrad Klar » Sun May 11, 2008 5:50 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:After a few rules debates, I can assure you that pretty much the entire game is counterintuitive.  :)
Your little victory here.  :wink:

After many studies, I can assure you that this game is consistent by design, despite some unclear records and doubtful rulings.  :)
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Post by Jambo » Mon May 12, 2008 12:20 pm

Jose-san wrote:Wouldn't it be easier if the follower wasn't removed inmediately from DI? Or if removing him affected GI? I find this quite counter-intuitive :(
Yes it would, and it would make more sense if it was done this way too.  What you tend to find is playing cards that cause this to happen can actually benefit your opponent by inadvertantly freeing up a character's DI for an influence attempt...

It should either not remove the character from under DI, or if it does, it should affect free GI immediately.  The latter is very strong when combined with Call of Home or Muster Disperses.
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Post by Wacho » Mon May 12, 2008 12:44 pm

Jose-san wrote:Wouldn't it be easier if the follower wasn't removed inmediately from DI? Or if removing him affected GI? I find this quite counter-intuitive :(
I think it does make sense if you look at it in a certain way.  Consider you have a group of characters who are marching through the wilderness on their way to Mt. Gram for instance.  All of a sudden Haldir gets an exalted sense of his own self-importance and no longer is willing to be Aragorn's sidekick.  What is he going to do, just wander off all on his own?  Maybe, but more likely he'll stick with the group even if he doesn't feel any loyalty to it simply out of self-interest and safety.  But once he gets a chance and some breathing space (i.e. the next org. phase) he'll be gone if he doesn't feel like there is room in the organization (enough GI) for someone of his importance.

I think that's a reasonable way of looking at things that makes thematic sense.  However, I think more likely ICE was considering the more practical aspects when making this rule.  As Jambo says Call of Home, Muster Disperses and such become very powerful if you were to count these characters against GI immediately.  Also, if you were going to do this I think you would need to allow for company reorganization during the m/h phase.  There's really no major thematic reason why you shouldn't be able to reorganize whenever you want, but for gameplay that would be really bad.

Jose-san
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Post by Jose-san » Mon May 12, 2008 3:00 pm

Of course, I can understand why the GI isn't updated inmediately. What I mean is that, from a game design point of view, it would be more elegant (shorter and easier rules which don't need that many clarifications) if all reorganization took place in the organization phase, including removing the follower from DI.

As it is now I see two problems. First, you have to remember if a character has previously been removed from DI to calculate free GI (that's not an elegant design). Second, when playing hazards to decrease opponent's influence you may instead increase it. Example: Aragorn controls Haldir (0 free DI) and Shut Yer Mouth (-2 DI) is played on Aragorn. Haldir is inmediately removed from DI. The result is the same free GI, but now Aragorn has 1 free DI. If all reorganization took place in the organization phase, at least Aragorn would have 0 free DI until then.

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Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Thu May 29, 2008 8:07 am

I use the same topic to formulate another question in line with the subject of this thread.

Can i play during the organization phase a character AND exceed the total GI ... then at the end of the Organization phase discard another one because i cannot control it?

From the Rules: Clarification: if you do not have enough influence to control all of your characters in play, they remain in play. However, you must discard any excess characters at the end of your next organization phase. If you bring a character into play during your organization phase and then do not have enough influence to control him, the character just brought into play must be returned to your hand at the end of your organization phase.


mm75
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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu May 29, 2008 9:07 am

If it would be allowed then this rule would be just:

Clarification: if you do not have enough influence to control all of your characters in play, they remain in play. However, you must discard any excess characters at the end of your next organization phase.

without:

If you bring a character into play during your organization phase and then do not have enough influence to control him, the character just brought into play must be returned to your hand at the end of your organization phase.

Underline mine.
Must, so you cannot choose between returning to hand just played character or discarding other one.

I think that it is possible, but not voluntary, but if you are forced to doing it. In situation when Elf-Song is in play, character is played at Haven and therefore cannot be returned to hand. Then you are forced to discard character outside Haven (if such is available).
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melkor_morgoth75
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Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Thu May 29, 2008 9:17 am

Yep, correct ... i had in mind Elf-song indeed,

thanks!

mm75

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