Good Sense Revolts

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Fangorn
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Good Sense Revolts

Post by Fangorn » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:36 pm

Good Sense Revolts
Playable on an untapped agent.
Tap the agent who may then make an influence attempt against an ally, faction, or character.+4 to influence attempt. +8 if ally, faction, or character is playable at agent's home site.
Alternatively, modify an influence attempt by an agent by +4.
This card cannot serve both functions.
I assume it's possible to use one Good Sense Revolts (first use) for the influence attempt and another Good Sense Revolts (second use) to modify the roll.
Is it right ?
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zirilan
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Post by zirilan » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:08 pm

Good Sense Revolts
Playable on an untapped agent.
Tap the agent who may then make an influence attempt against an ally, faction, or character.+4 to influence attempt. +8 if ally, faction, or character is playable at agent's home site.
Alternatively, modify an influence attempt by an agent by +4.
This card cannot serve both functions.
Function one: +4 to influence attempt against ally, faction, character
Function two: +8 to influence attempt against ally, faction, character (if playable at agent's home site)

Alternative use: +4 modify

One card can eighter be used for:
  • +4 modify to influence attempt
  • +4 influence attempt against ally, faction, charakter
  • +8 influence attempt against ally, faction, charakter (if playable at agent's home site)

So you can do the following:

Play the card for influence attempt, play a copy of this card to raise the influence attempt +4.

Or play the card for influence attempt, play mouth of sauron on this card, play the card again to raise the influence attempt +4.

Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:38 am

Not quite, I think.  The card is discarded when it resolves, which means the influence check occurs at that time, so no Mouth of Sauron cannot grab the card again in time for it to help its own dice roll.

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zirilan
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Post by zirilan » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:46 am

Bandobras Took wrote:Not quite, I think.  The card is discarded when it resolves, which means the influence check occurs at that time, so no Mouth of Sauron cannot grab the card again in time for it to help its own dice roll.
A card can eighter be in

deck
sideboard
discard pile
your hand
play
out of play.

There is no floating zone or kind of, you play a short event and it goes from your hand directly to your discard pile.

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Ringbearer
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Post by Ringbearer » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:18 am

Actually you canot grab it with mouth to boost itself. When it is played its in limbo until it resolves. After it resolves it goes to discard pile.
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Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:36 pm

Ringbearer wrote:Actually you canot grab it with mouth to boost itself. When it is played its in limbo until it resolves. After it resolves it goes to discard pile.
CRF: Rulings by Term:
Sub Section S

Short-event
Short-events are discarded when resolved in a chain of effects, not when declared. Thus, they can be targeted by certain special effects in the chain of effects

Thus you could play Good Sense Revolts and allows the influence check.  The card is done, it allowed the agent to influence.  In response to the influence check you could play mouth to get the card back.  In response to the die roll you could play Good Sense Revolts.

You'd have to play it like this, since you can't have chains within chains.

I think you can respond to a die roll, not 100% sure, I have to double check.  It's a weird convoluted way to do it, but I think technically possible within the rules.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:17 am

MELE Rules wrote:Your opponent may always declare an action in response before your action is resolved. Then, you may respond to his action, and he can respond to your second action, and so on until neither player can (or wants to) perform an action.
Once a chain has begun resolving, you cannot declare new actions until it has finished resolving.
CRF, Targets wrote:When the play of a card is declared, no elements of the card may be the target of actions declared in the same chain of effects. An exception to this is a dice-rolling action; e.g., a corruption check.
Indicates that the dice roll is part of the resolution of the chain.  You can't declare new actions in between the resolution of card play and the immediate effects of that card.  You would have to target the dice-rolling action in response to the play of Good Sense within the same chain, not afterward.

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Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:07 pm

Start Chain
Good Sense
Good sense resolves allowing the agent to influence.
End of Chain

New Chain
Influence check is a 2nd action that happens which you can respond to.
End Chain

etc.

Or are you claiming once I inniate an influence attempt nothing else can be done at this point?

You would never get to play cards like New Friendship or A Friend or Three.

Under your kind of scenario you would never be able to play cards like Risky Blow, etc when a creature resolved, because you would have to do everything on the card and can't have chains within chains.  I'm initiating different chains, in respnose to other actions.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:01 pm

As I quoted before, Dice Rolling actions may be targeted earlier in the same chain of effects.  Cards like New Friendship are played in response to the declaration of the influence attempt, because the dice rolling action occurs upon resolution.

The only exception to this is when the dice roll is an active condition of an action, e.g. the One Ring's strike cancelling ability.

In the case of Good Sense Revolts:

Playable on an untapped agent.

This is the active condition that must be met upon declaration and resolution.

Tap the agent who may then make an influence attempt against an ally, faction, or character.

This is the effect of the card.  The wording makes it clear that the influence check occurs at the time of tapping.
MELE Rules wrote:A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded.
A card's effects are declared in the same chain of effects as play of the card itself, as I've always understood it.

Otherwise, it would be impossible to fizzle hazards with Deeper Shadow because all card play would resolve before all card effects resolve in a chain.  Since Good Sense Revolts does not indicate it lasts until the end of the turn, the Agent may only make the influence attempt at the time Good Sense Revolts resolves.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:31 pm

Sauron wrote:Under your kind of scenario you would never be able to play cards like Risky Blow, etc when a creature resolved, because you would have to do everything on the card and can't have chains within chains.  I'm initiating different chains, in respnose to other actions.
CRF, Turn Sequence Rulings, Movement/Hazard Phase, Combat wrote:@ Between an attacks declaration and the assigning of the strikes there is time for multiple chains of effect. Thus you could for example make two attempts to cancel the attack or your opponent could use Hoarmurath for an extra strike, recycle him and add another strike. [CoE] %
http://www.meccg.net/netherlands/meccg/ ... .html#move

In fact otherwise you would not be even be able to play cards like Many Foes He Fought and there would not be the time for declaration of actions from cards like Minions Stir.
In Strike Sequence you can also play cards/declare effects within limitations Annotation 18.

And there is no other situations, where chains of effects are nested in other chains of effects.

For this reason:
Annotation 2 wrote:A corruption check or any dice-rolling action can be targeted in the
chain of effects during which it was declared.
like pointed by Bandobras Took.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Sauron
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Post by Sauron » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:23 pm

1st off I never disagreed with the dice rolling portion.  I wasn't 100% sure on that.

Under your scenario:
Tap Agent
Agent then makes influence check
He could not get the +4 or the +8 bonus since we need to finish unwinding the chain. But we also at this point need to make an influence check and now were in a catch 22.

We finish unwinding the chain and give the appropriate bonuses.  He can now longer do the influence check under your scenario because we've finished resolving and we're past the point where he could have made the influence check.

Again this is illogical.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:59 pm

You cannot use the same copy of Good Sense on itself.

You can declare good sense.

This also declares that the agent will be tapping and making an influence check, which is a dice roll.

Since a dice roll is declared, you may modify that dice roll by declaring certain effects.  For example, you may declare another copy of Good Sense which will modify the influence attempt.

All actions which will modify the dice roll resolve.

Good sense resolves, and the dice roll is made.  Any modifiers to the roll from effects that have already resolved apply.

There doesn't seem to be a logical contradiction there.

Likewise, when you declare play of a creature hazard, your opponent cannot cancel any attacks of that creature hazard until play of the hazard has resolved.  Once the creature resolves, however, the attack must be immediately faced.  There are multiple means of facing the attack.  You may declare an attempt to cancel the attack, you may have your characters face the strikes, etc.

If because of your opponent's actions in response to your declaration of a cancelling attempt, the attempt fails, then you're left where you were before -- facing an attack.

I still don't see that there's any logical contradiction here.

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