Virtual Card Discussion

Ever thought up cards of your own, or written a cool scenario? This is the place to share your ideas.

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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:30 pm

Re: Shameful Deeds, do the 9 MPs have to be discarded from the hand all at once?  Do you reckon it's basically game over the for the wiz that loses that duel?  

In fact any FW with FW specific stage resources is in deep do-do should they get captured or discarded.
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Sly Southerner
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Post by Sly Southerner » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:34 am

First impressions on virtual hero characters:

Bard: Love the change. Brilliant.

Legolas: Love the extra text, but he has changed too much. I would prefer him to stay at 6 mind, and only have two skills. Probably Warrior/Scout since there are plenty of Warrior/Rangers.

If you wanted a 40th card I would suggest Gimli as a Warrior/Ranger - he did run an awful long way for a dwarf!  :D
So that's where that southerner is hiding...He looks more than half like a goblin.

Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:09 pm

Well, the idea with Leg-o-lamb was to make him actually worth playing.  As a 5-prowess warrior, he looked pretty weak with the diplomat skill (and that's the reason why almost no one plays him, I think).  Basically, we wanted to pair him with Gimli somehow.  Since Gimli already has some nice bonuses (vs. Orcs, vs. elves), we thought we'd change Legolas.  Now the two of them can be in a company together without worrying about Unhappy Blows.  Legolas can control Oin or Kili, while Gimli lords it over Annalena or Haldir.  That's a 6-MP, 4-skill, 13 GI company -- nice and compact, though hardly overpowered.  Throw a wizard into the bunch and 3 Crept Along Carefully, and you've got one of the slinkiest groups in the game, with 10 DI for influencing (or ACM) to boot!


BTW, I remembered why you can't go after a normal RW with the magic duel: most RWs have nowhere to run!  We wanted to encourage the play of RWs while discouraging Sauron/LE/Hog a bit....  I'm not sure if we got it quite right, but that was the reasoning. :D

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Post by Jambo » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:44 pm

I like the changes to Legolas, but the 7 mind might be a bit of a bummer for FW decks where Gimli and Legolas do currently get some use. I actually have a really good Fallen Gandalf deck that uses both Gimli and Legolas together and has a surprisingly good win:loss record on GCCG.  I would say though that I haven't been able to find a use for them in a straight-forward hero deck. As diplomats and with none of the of FW specific cards like Gandalf's Friend, they're not much use.

It did cross my mind that the reason for not allowing wiz and FW to duel against RWs would be because of the lack of RW mobility; however, they can move from Darkhaven to Darkhaven....  I think to avoid these duel cards dominating the game, the best option might be to make it so the character has to tap to initiate them?  At least then there might be some defence for a squatting FW or RW.  Plus, it's not easy to enter into Dol Guldur and remain untapped or unwounded!  I do like them though, as it gives a reason for having the other 2 avatar cards in the playdeck and the theme behind them is cool.  The Shameful Deeds FW one could be a bit game-ending though, as there's no escape from incarceration with MT or VoM and 9 MPs is a lot! :)

There are a lot of really neat ideas in these and my favourites are Half an Eye Open, Naz are Abroad and Sac of Form! :)
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Sly Southerner
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Post by Sly Southerner » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:07 am

You will always get people nitpicking I suppose, but virtual Legolas is way overpowered as a 7 mind Warrior/Ranger/Scout IMHO. It makes him better than Thranduil (9 mind Warrior/Ranger/Sage) and even Aragorn (9 mind Warrior/Ranger/Scout). It also makes him far better than Gimli which isnt really thenatic. With three skills Legolas should be at least 8 mind or preferably have 6 mind and one less skill.

As an aside I also think it would be sensible to have major input from Nicolai if this is being seriuosly put forward. He is the king of dream cards and has probably spent more time thinking about this than teh rest of us put together.  :D
So that's where that southerner is hiding...He looks more than half like a goblin.

Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:35 pm

I agree that he's very strong.  According to Jaded's equation, the following should hold within +/- .5:

mind = (2*skill+2*DI+prowess+body-9)/2

Let's see how Legoas fairs....

M = (2*3 + 2*2 + 5 + 9 - 9)/2 = 15/2 = 7.5.

So you see, his mind is as low as is allowable according to the equation, but it's still within bounds.

((Note: this makes me wonder whether Snaga's body shouldn't be 12, with a discard on 11 or 12....)



The other reasons for giving him 7 mind are:

(1) So that a FW cannot play him, and
(2) So that he will only be played for what he can do, and not for what he is worth.  (Think of all the 7-mind characters -- Beorn, Dain, Anarin -- they are the least efficient in terms of MP/mind ratio.  Why are they played, then?  The same reason people play 4-mind characters: what they can do.)


Perhaps Gimli should also be virtualized, but I'm wary of changing both members of the daring duo.  After all, Gimli already has a (specialized) use in FW decks as the only dwarf who can sustain an unexpected party....

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:30 pm

Hey zara, do you fancy putting up the virtual card templates as a sticky thread in this forum so others can use them?  These would be for all coloured backgrounds.
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Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:55 pm

I'm afraid you'll have to ask Joe for that... he did all the tech work on this project.

There are, however, pretty good templates already available at the Old Man Willow site, I think: http://www.meccg.net/archive/willow/index.htm

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Post by Sly Southerner » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:48 am

Zarathustra wrote:So you see, his mind is as low as is allowable according to the equation, but it's still within bounds.
Agreed, I checked that out myself first. :)
Normally however using that equation I found that extra abilities mean you round up rather than down. He has the most desirable skill set possible and is an elf which also usually adds mind. Also, the other 7 minders you mention only have 2 skills.

I guess the only thing is to play him and find out and if he encourages that then I think thats great. I think you will find Legolas will go from 'zero' to 'hero' and become the best character in the game, but no-one will bother with Gimli in combination except for thematic reasons as he wouldnt really add that much.

I'm also interested to hear what Nicolai thinks.  :D
So that's where that southerner is hiding...He looks more than half like a goblin.

Vastor Peredhil
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Post by Vastor Peredhil » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:19 am

Guess what even I would say he is overpowered, since special abilities should add more than just round up. Also with Great Friendship Gimli and LEGO-LARS are unstopable.

I guess you wouldn't need to playtest this, it is rather obvious. In may play group 7 minders are quite used a lot, even when they only have two skills.

for me it became a standart to create tripple-XXX-skilll characters with 8 mind (also think about exceptions to this rule: hero: Galva minion: Carambor, Pon Opar, Pon-ora-Pon, Surion, Taladhan, Tarcil, Ufthak, Wormtongue) go to go will finish later

Vastor Peredhil
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Post by Vastor Peredhil » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:48 am

So how much play do any of these characters get???

I guess besides in an occasional Badbeard deck, none to even less!
Okay seriously some really good minion decks male use of Carambor, Ufthak, Pon Opar or Tarcil (which is the coolest in my opinion).

As it is actually a dream card I will compare it to some off the 7 minders I created:
#BALIN, SON OF FUNDIN (MEDF) - WARRIOR/SCOUT/SAGE DWARF-LORD
[MP: 2; Mind: 7;GI: 16; DI: 2, (DI: 5); P/B: 5/8]
Unique. Manifestation of Balin. When Balin is at Moria and The Lord of Khazad-dûm is played on him, his controlling player may keep one more card than normal in his hand.  -2 marshalling points if eliminated. +2 prowess against Orcs and Wolves. +3 direct influence against Dwarves. If you are Balin all cards playable at or on Moria are worth full marshalling points. All cards which need to be stored at a Dwarf-hold may also be stored at Moria for full marshalling points. Home Site: Blue Mountains Dwarf-hold

well a Lord-charcter, but if you play the KING OF DURIN'S HOUSE variant, Balin is one key character.

#CELEBRIAN (MEFB) - SCOUT/SAGE/DIPLOMAT ELF (Netizen Design)
[MP: 2; Mind: 6; DI: 2; P/B: 2/9; Home Site: Rivendell]
Unique. +1 direct influence against Elves. +5 direct influence against Elrond. -2 MP if eliminated. Home Site: Rivendell

well Galadriel's daughter in every aspect

#ARATHORN II (MEKN) WARRIOR/RANGER/DIPLOMAT DUNADAN
[MP: 2; Mind: 7; DI: 2; P/B: 5/9]
Unique. +1 direct influence against elves and dúnedain. +2 direct influence against Rangers of the North faction. -2 marshalling points if eliminated. Home Sites: Annúminas, Rivendell
As the daddy to Strider he is important, so -2 MP is teh keyed to maybe solve the LEGOLAS (I doubt it since in the story he could be replaced, by whoever)

#HALBARAD OF THE NORTH (MEKN) WARRIOR/RANGER/SAGE DUNADAN
[MP: 2; Mind: 6; DI: 1; P/B: 5/7; Home Site: Any Border-hold in Eriador]
Unique. Manifestation of Halbarad. +1 direct influence against factions playable at his home sites.
well Halabarad needed even more help than Legolas

#LOS’PINDEL (MENW) -  SCOUT/RANGER/SAGE ELF
[MP: 2; MIND: 7; DI: 2; P/B: 2/8; Home Site: Helloth]
Unique. +2 direct influence against Elves and Men with a Home Site in the Northern Waste and Elf and Man factions playable at sites in the Northern Waste. When Los’pindel is at Helloth her controlling player may keep one more card than normal in his hand.  -2 marshalling points if eliminated. Los’pindel recieves +2 prowess and +1 body as long as her company is in the Northern Waste. Los’pindel makes a corruption check every organisation if not in the Northern Waste.
well quite useable, but we are aware of that and think off increasing her mind up to 8.

MABLUNG OF ITHILIEN (MERK) - WARRIOR/SCOUT/RANGER DUNADAN
[MP: 1; Mind: 3; DI: 0; P/B 4/8]
Unique. Manifestation of Mablung. -1 to corruption checks. -1 to influence attempts against factions. Unless in your starting company, may only be brought into play at his home site. Home Site: Henneth Annûn
speaking of overpowered characters, yes we are going to change him, as I said, obviously

here is my version from the FIRSTBORN
#LEGOLAS OF GREENWOOD (MEFB) - WARRIOR/SCOUT ELF
[MP: 1; Mind: 3; DI: 0; P/B: 4/8; Home Site: Thranduil's Halls
Unique. Manifestation of Legolas. +2 direct influence against Wood Elves faction.

I guess either -2 MP or less specials or loose the ranger skill has to do for Legolas.

just my 95 cents, today's special over

mfg Nicolai

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:43 am

I'm not convinced Legolas is overpowered.  Just look at Beorn for 7 mind - you get a 2 MP 7/9 Warrior Ranger with 2 DI and +2 DI vs a specific faction.  Legolas is considerably weaker and in many ways is kind of similar to Thorin, although for 1 extra mind Thorin is worth 3 MPs and has a better bonus vs orcs.

I kind of like him as he is, although I would be a little put out by not being able to use the virtual version of him in my FW Gandalf deck.  He's clearly set out to be combined with Gimli and therefore to get his full benefit his role is quite limited.  For this his Ranger skill is important as Gimli is a Warrior Diplomat.  There's almost no decent movable Elf scouts so that's also an interesting plus point which might further his use in other decks.  

I also feel that 3 skills isn't as big an advantage anyway, since decks are often built around just one or two of any of the main characters' skills.  Take for example my deck that uses Gimli and Legolas - it uses them both for their diplomat skills for Ruse and Flatter a Foe, with Legolas as Gandalf's Friend and Gimli with Wizard's Myrmidon.  Other characters fill the Ranger role.

Personally, I think a card deserving of 'virtual improvement' would be Gandalf's Special card, Hobbit-lore. :D
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Nariam
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Post by Nariam » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:54 pm

^there is another card than Hobbit lore which would be a great theme card but is one of the most unuseful in the game: Drughu.

What about making a virtual card for that? Here's my proposal:


Drughu - Hero Resource Permanent Event

You may tap any of your wose factions at the end of the organization phase, if one of your companies contains either a diplomat or Ghân-Buri-Ghân and starts its movement at the site where the faction is playable. For the purposes of hazard play, target company is consideret not moving through the region that contains the site where the faction is playable, and any adjancent regions, until the end of turn. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.


What do you think of that?  :D  Still quite specialist, but potentially quite powerful in the right deck.
Off course I'm not saying you have to make this or something similar a virtual card, I just wanted to share the idea.

I like most of the virtual cards BTW, some are really great 8)

Dirhaval
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Post by Dirhaval » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:26 am

Ya Narim, I like the direction of Drughu but what about adding the other wose characters/minions?

With hobbit-lore and slightly off topic, what about discarding a hobbit-lore so  Gandalf can play a hobbit at a haven site? How much will that help decks needing a hobbit in Gondor or Wilderland?
Mathomlore needs Bag End, but Bilbo with When I Know Anything, and magical harp or a palantir. So, should I get a UEP started with this?


By the way, I do like the Virtual cards; but when I brag about MECCG to buddies who play Magic; I boost that I can play MECCG twice a month for 8 years and not play the same deck twice; so we have 22 avatars to choose from and each one can have 4 good decks to play; so I am finding it hard to see why the Virtual cards are needed or desired. I would recommend such vitrual cards to be sent to the next holder of the MECCG license for the cards can be changed.

IMHO,
Dirhaval

Nariam
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Post by Nariam » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:04 am

Yeah, one could make a separate Minion version, exchanging Ghân-Buri-Ghân with Pon-Ora-Pon and Om-Buri-Om, and only playable by covert company.  :)

I don't quite get what you want to UEP for Mathom Lore. The hobbit lore change doesn't make thematical sense to me like this - why should a hobbit be hangin' round in Edhellond just because Gandalf knows their folk? I'd rather combine it with some smokin, say, take a Smoke Rings from your discard pile or Play deck to hand, or something similar, as I proposed with "Smoke Lore" once.

Glad you like the idea of Drughu as a whole, I thought it would fit much better with the books.

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