Minion GI Bonus

[Jose-san]

I think that the +5 GI (not usable) bonus for minions is quite unfair. It's supposed to compensate the low DI and the movement constraints of RWs. But minions get this bonus from the begining of the game. This is a clear advantage over hero players. A hero company is usually an easy target for call of home in the first turn while a minion company is not. Moreover, minion characters have usually more DI than hero.

I think that the +5 GI (not usable) bonus should only be effective when you reveal a RW, not from the begining of the game neither if you are Sauron.

[Bandobras Took]

Moreover, minion characters have usually more DI than hero.

I'm not sure I entirely agree there.  If you're running an Overt company, the race-specific bonuses could make that true, not to mention the possibilities of Trophies and the Whip Minor Item.

But one of the larger headaches I've found with running covert companies is scraping together enough DI to have some good followers.  Heroes have a whole run of 2:1 characters (Cirdan at 8 Mind:4 DI, Theoden at 6 Mind:3 DI, Erkendbrand at 4 Mind:2 DI, etc.).  Not only that, but heroes have a card to find their avatar (Windlord Found Me).  Usually to get high DI with a covert company, you've got to pull out the Agents or use the highly vulnerable Mouth.  Given that any minion running agents is going to have a massive headache if an agent gets put back to his hand, I don't think that added insurance against Call of Home/character returners is asking too much.

[Wacho]

I think the +5GI was put in to help against having your stuff influenced away by your opponent, especially a wizard with 10DI free.  But then later they added the -5 to cross influence attempts as well.  I don't think minions are too vulnerable without it, especially with cards like Bade to Rule, mind rings, open to the summons, etc.  The extra GI seems to just make any type of influence destruction, or stealing resources through influence nigh impossible.  I think that minions would get along fine without this bonus.

[Zarathustra]

I think there's no problems whatsoever with the GI bonus.  Heroes are more fragile in this area than minions.  That's no surprise.  They're more fragile in practically every area.  Their advantage lies in two places:

(1) huge combos for huge MPs (e.g. KUtM)
(2) Dunking

These two features of hero decks make them plenty competetive with minions.

[Sly Southerner]

I find this more irritating than anything. I think ICE could have made things a whole lot simpler if the rules for minions were the same as for heros. The same applies for the 6 starting chracter rule for minion vs 5 for heros. The game could have been balanced without doing this.

[Jambo]

Interesting.  I think this +5 GI falls into several situations where it could be deemed ok or overpowered.  With an active RW, this +5 GI is to me absolutely essential.

For a squatting RW with Bade to Rule or Sauron/LE or even a squatting Balrog with Greater Shadow, it seems to be every so slightly too much. Maybe +3 would have been more appropriate?  At least this would have made the minion player have to think about GI.

Nevertheless, there are actually a few influence busting cards that whilst they don't tend to harm heroes too greatly due to their caution around the 20 GI limit, they can inflict problems on a 20 GI hogging minion company.

[Dam]

Nevertheless, there are actually a few influence busting cards that whilst they don't tend to harm heroes too greatly due to their caution around the 20 GI limit, they can inflict problems on a 20 GI hogging minion company.

Not being a smart-ass or anything  (no, really), but care to toss out some cards that fit the bill? MELE even introduced a couple of cards that take unused GI into account (in addition to Call of Home and Muster Disp. that were already in the game): News of Doom and Stay Her Appetite (against which I assume Minions gain the benefit of that +5). Nobody runs those cards against Minions (or rarely at most), since even if they are in "full GI use" -mode, that +5 will make it better than average to avoid the effects of those cards.

[Jose-san]

I would add that hero doesn't got anything like "By the Ringwraith's Word", "No More Nonsense" or "High Helm"...

(edited a typo)

[Zarathustra]

Oh?

Vilya, A Friend or Three, Narsil, Old Friendship, Return of the King, To Fealty Sworn, Sac of Form, Wizard's Ring, Wizard's Staff, Aiglos, DragonHelm, The White Wizard....

[Jose-san]

Well... what i meant is that "By the Ringwraith's Word", "No More Nonsense" and "High Helm" are all permaments (or object), all give a nice DI bonus, and all are (reasonably) easy to play on any character. In that sense, I think there are no hero cards like them

[Bandobras Took]

Turn one: Play Saruman, bring Sac of Form to discard.
Turn two: Bring Sac to Hand, bring party to Isengard.
Turn three: Play Windlord at Isengard, use Sac of Form on the attack.
Turn four/five: Go store Windlord.  Bring Saruman back in.  White Wizard.  And Wizard's Ring.

Again, though, I'd still say I've had less problems with hero DI than minion.  No More Nonsense can drastically backfire and you'll have to have By the Ringwraith's Word to even use it on a covert company.  High Helm is a nice boost, but so is any lesser ring for heroes.

Given that By the RW Word requires you to be in a company with the RW to play, I'd say that the mobile 10 DI of a hero far outweighs it in terms of convenience.

[Jambo]

Nevertheless, there are actually a few influence busting cards that whilst they don't tend to harm heroes too greatly due to their caution around the 20 GI limit, they can inflict problems on a 20 GI hogging minion company.

Not being a smart-ass or anything  (no, really), but care to toss out some cards that fit the bill? MELE even introduced a couple of cards that take unused GI into account (in addition to Call of Home and Muster Disp. that were already in the game): News of Doom and Stay Her Appetite (against which I assume Minions gain the benefit of that +5). Nobody runs those cards against Minions (or rarely at most), since even if they are in "full GI use" -mode, that +5 will make it better than average to avoid the effects of those cards.

Cards like:

So You've Come Back
Rebel-talk
Shut Your Mouth

They don't take into acccount the +5 bonus and can cause problems for a minion company that's playing too close to the 20 GI limit.

[Wacho]

Cards like:

So You've Come Back
Rebel-talk
Shut Your Mouth

They don't take into acccount the +5 bonus and can cause problems for a minion company that's playing too close to the 20 GI limit.

These cards work equally as well against heroes.  Sure a minion player that is close to 20 GI might have a harder time dealing with this than a hero player that is only @15 GI, but that's because the minion player doesn't have to be as carefull.  He doesn't have to worry about Call of Home, Muster Disperses, Stay Her Appetite, etc.

[Nameless thing]

I think the reason for +5 GI is the note "Once in play, the number required to influence this faction is 0" which is included in almost all minion Orc/Troll/Animal factions. It also balances the game bcause the heroes can get more MP's easier (standard mods based on influencer's race, more MP's for one item/faction), but are more likely to lose them on Call of HOme/Muster Disperses.

[Leon]

For starts I thought the minion +5 GI was overpowered, but I do not think so any longer. Getting loads of character MPs is actually easier with heroes. Cards that hurt the minions that hit the 20 GI are those that increase mind or state that a character cannot be a follower anymore (forgot their names)

As far as I am concerned the only overpowered avatar with respect to their influence is the Balrog and his leaders. If I thought it would have any chance of getting through I would propose giving Great Shadow and the Balrog guys a -1 influence and removing all the special rules for character play for the Balrog (sideboard, discard, 2 per turn). I think these rules were made to balance for the lack of havens, but We Have Come to Kill and Burat, Wuluag and Tuma make any such compensation absolutely unnecessary.