[UEP, discussion] <Last Child of Ungoliant and Shelob>

[Majagua_the_Necromancer]

HEck, why just not apply the rule that when a manifestation is in play, the other can´t be played? so that way, you´ll have to discard Shelob first, before you can play the LCOU, and Shelob can´t return the ally to your hand once you have her in play. &nbsp;There´s enough trouble already for trying to get her.

[Sly Southerner]

That would be simpler. Just delete the bit about returning to hand when Shelob is played.

The question is how important is this in the meta-game? How often does Shelob actually get played? I never put her in the sideboard to counter LCoU becuase the ally is so rarely played anyway.

[Majagua_the_Necromancer]

Well, even if people don´t put shelob in the SB to counter the ally (I myself haven´t seen this also), at least this would make the ally more playable than normal.

[Ûvatha]

So, should the errata just be deleting the "return LCoU to your hand when Shelob is played" sentence ??

I'm changing this in the main post.

If you like, another period for voting will be held.


Ûvatha

[Jambo]

Uvatha,

Might I suggest making a new thread or editing the first post and adding a poll to the UEP?

[Ûvatha]

I think adding a poll is a good idea. I already edited the first post, so we'll see how the poll goes.


Thanks


Ûvatha

[Khamul the Easterling]

Sorry, I've just seen the topic but wasn't in the mood to read all your 35 replies. I don't agree with the proposal, mainly thematically: Shelob is a more evil creature on its own which easily would turn against the one who'd put her on a lead. The actual card text makes much sense to me.

Thus, I vote NO!

[Wacho]

I'm also voting no.

[Sly Southerner]

Nicolas, with the last couple of no votes this concept appears to be in trouble. I thought I should point out one of the problems for the UEP was multiple changes early on. If the proposal is changed then technically you should make a new proposal or restart voting. There were a couple of changes after discussion which confused the picture. If unsure what I tend to do is start a discussion thread to fine-tune my ideas.

Thanks for your interest in the process though and I'd encourage you to stay involved. Jambo and I both have less time to commit than we used to! &nbsp;:D

[Ûvatha]

I would very much like to stay involved, but right now i`m overwhelmed with work at the Uni .

I would really apreciate if someone could create a discution thread for this UEP, and I will come back ASAP, but right now i`m just ccan`t.


Thank in advance.


Ûvatha

[Jambo]

No worries Uvatha. &nbsp;People can simply use this thread for discussion and I'll change the topic title to reflect this.

[Ûvatha]

Thanks Jambo.

So, to get this discution started, how do you think this UEP should be proposed. So far, the following posibilities were brought to attention:

a) LCoU has the same rules as other manifestations, this is, you cannot play Shelob as long as LCoU is in pley.

b) Is LCoU is in play and Shelobs is played, put LCoU off to the side until Shelob leaves play. ( She may or may not give MP as long as she is off to the side)
If the controling character is not in a region where LCoU can move, discard her.


So far I guess the most easy solution is the option a). The other one is a little too complicated, and I think that the best UEP are those that don't chage too much the card itself.


So, &nbsp;how do you guys feel about this ??


Ûvatha

[Sly Southerner]

I think people like the idea of Shelob turning on her master so I don't think a UEP stopping that (option a) would succeed. I also think option b is too complicated (despite initially suggesting it ). The main problem is the harsh consequences of returning Last Child to hand. Lets look at the cards in more detail:

Shelob. 18/9

Unique. Spider. May be played as a hazard creature (with one strike) or as a permanent-event. As a creature, may be played at any site in Imlad Morgul or Gorgoroth. If Doors of Night is in play, Shelob may be played as a permanent-event that gives +1 prowess and +1 strikes to all Spider and Animal attacks. She may opt to attack from a permanent-event state and receive these bonuses, but her attack counts as one against the hazard limit. Discard as a permanent event when Shelob attacks or when Doors of Night leaves play.

Last Child of Ungoliant. 11/9

Unique. Playable at Shelod's Lair. Manifestation of Shelob. Tap this ally to either: cancel one hazard creature attack against a company moving to a site in Imlad Morgul, Ithilien, or Gorgoroth, or to discard one hazard permanent-event on such a company or on a character in such a company. Discard this card if her company moves to a site that is not in Imlad Morgul, Ithilien, or Gorgoroth. Return her to your hand is Shelob is played.

So Shelob can attack in Imlad Morgul or Gorgoroth and Last Child can move to the same regions plus Ithilien. Thus Shelob can teleport to a different region if there is another company in Imlad Morgul or Gorgoroth. She is also unable to turn on her "master" if LCoU is in Ithilien.. This is not really consistent and is a seriuos flaw with the card. Note also that both manifestations have the same body whch is important for my proposal:

I think a better option is to delete the "return to hand" penalty, enforce the ususal manifestation rules and add the following exception to Last Child of Ungoliant:

Shelob may be played as a hazard creature attack on a company containing Last Child of Ungoliant. Last Child of Ungoliant may not cancel or face a strike from this attack.

Under this proposal:
1. If Shelob is defeated then Last Child is also eliminated (this is no different to the current situation).
2. If Last Child of Ungoliant's controlling character is eliminated then she is discarded (slightly different to the current situation of return to hand but very similar in outcome).
3. If both survive then Last Child is subdued and stays under the control of her master (the main difference with this proposal).
4. Shelob cannot be played as a permanent event if LCoU is in play (by itself this is a pretty cheezy move, but she also could not benefit from her own bonuses when attacking which is a potential crticism.)
5. She cannot teleport to attack a different company (good for consistency)
6. She can now potentially attack in Ithilien if LCoU is there (another important difference for consistency and also to give back a little of what is taken away).

I thought about LCoU being "off to the side" or "not in play" for the duration of the attack, but thought this would get too complicated.

What do you think?

[Majagua_the_Necromancer]

so was this ever approved? I would even say that the number of regions in which this ally could move should be extended. &nbsp;It wouldn´t change the game dramatically.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Well the proposal changed, so a new voting would have to be arranged, and that hasn't happened yet. I had my doubts about the original proposal, it seems, rereading it, though I don't remember exactly what that proposal was. The new one seems fine in essence, but it needs to solve some problems about the manifestation rule obviously. All in all, it's not ready for voting (hence the 'discussion'). You should pick it up with the original proposer and/or make a new proposal.
Personally I would not object to see more Ungoliant, though I would not extend the regions, but all in all I see little problem, since Shelob isn't played alot either. In sideboard just to prevent Ungoliant? does not seem that likely. It's more the auto-attack and her restrictions that keep Ungoliant grounded.