[UEP, Failed] Blind/Ire cannot be used on Ring Tests

[Bandobras Took]

Name: Blind/Ire cannot be used on Ring Tests

Status: Proposed

Proposal maintainer: Bandobras Took

Categories: Balance

Errata: Blind to the West and Ire of the East may not be used on ring tests.

Problem: With the existence of hazards like Rolled and the general clog created by Ring decks anyway, there aren't a lot of FW Ring-based decks.  Not only that, but A New Ringlord is hard enough to do without a guaranteed and unblockable delay on getting the One out.

Solution: Remove a major stumbling block to getting Rings out.

Pros: There are still vigorous anti-ring hazards.

Cons: None that I can see.

Rationale: Blind/Ire are almost ridiculously strong in that they can be played at any time not counting against the hazard limit.  However, Rings are the only source of MPs they directly interfere with.  This is because Rings as a source of MPs rely on a ring test, while no other source of MPs relies on a short event to be at all playable.  In other words, you might Blind to the West a Muster or Lordly Presence, but you can't play Blind on the Faction itself.  You might Blind to the West my Sojourn in Shadows, but you can't Blind to the West an Under-deeps Shadow-hold.  However, if you Blind to the West my Ring Test, that's it.  I'm out of options.  I have no way to get my Rings in play barring recycling the test.  On the New Ringlord side, all you need to do is halt the test for the One Ring long enough to call.  I do have a deck that's done a 4-5 turn dunk more than once, but only because the opponent didn't have Blind or felt too merciful to play it.  Neither of these resource strategies is so strong that Blind/Ire should completely destroy them.

Discussion: Not much.

Voting started at: September 5th, 2007

Voting ends at: October 5th, 2007, or thereabouts.

[Sly Southerner]

Sounds interesting and I'm tempted to vote yes. I have never played with these cards however so I'd like to see some discussion before voting.

[Bandobras Took]

I'd be interested in some discussion, too.  Usually when I propose something, there's an aspect I've overlooked.  Unfortunately, neither of the current naysayers has posted a reason.

[Ringbearer]

I think it goes against nature to cancel specific cards out of Ire and Blind. If you are concerned for them to be too broken, cancel them out. There are more decks that rely heavily on interrupts and thus are vulnerable to Ire and Blind. Besides, most FW sideboard contains usually a total of 3 Blind/Ires because some other cards are much more important.

[Bandobras Took]

I think it goes against nature to cancel specific cards out of Ire and Blind. If you are concerned for them to be too broken, cancel them out.

I'm not sure I understand.  What do you mean by cancel them out?  There aren't any cards that defend against Blind/Ire, as far as I know.

There are more decks that rely heavily on interrupts and thus are vulnerable to Ire and Blind. Besides, most FW sideboard contains usually a total of 3 Blind/Ires because some other cards are much more important.

And I have no problem with Blind/Ire attacking decks that rely heavily on short-events.  But what if there were a hazard short event playable at any time which said "Playable upon an attempt to influence a faction.  The attempt is cancelled and the faction is discarded."  This is the problem with Blind/Ire cancelling Ring Tests as opposed to cancelling any other Short Event.  It directly prevents the playing of Ring Items, because in order to get Ring Items out you have to use a short event.  This isn't a case of deck relying heavily on short events, but a deck in which you're forced to rely strictly on short events to be playable, and is therefore destroyed by Blind/Ire.

The only one who's immune is Fallen Gandalf, because his tapping to test a Gold Ring is not a short event.

If you happen to believe that tapping the site is an active condition of Ringlore, then Many-Coloured Robes is death-trap, since the info site will be tapped when you declare Ringlore, and then canceled, leaving you with a tapped info site for no ring.

The point is not that eventually your opponent will run out of Blind/Ire, but that by the time he does, he will have won because you're directly prevented from a source of MPs/finding the One.

[Ringbearer]

What I mean is that if you are too concerned about Blind and Ire you should agree not to play them. A FW has the full bonus from two sides, and thus should be punished, even in ringtesting. He can play a total of 6 to 10 ringtest cards.

Also, there are FW decks like Marks Framsburg Bounty. That deck relies heavily on Bounty of the Hoard... if that card would constantly be cancelled, the deck would be useless, but still he played it and become North American champ.

In my opionion Ire and Blind are risks you have to take as a Fallen-Wizard. You get the bonus from both sides, using a much bigger pool compared to either minion or hero, and therefore there should be some disatvantage.

I have a deck that relies heavily on hobbits squatting at Wellinghall to score Ent after Ent, and I dont complaint over Heart Grown Cold.

[Bandobras Took]

Double Dealing will let you play Ent after Ent in spite of Heart Grown Cold, which is also vulnerable as a permanent event.

If Bounty of the Hoard gets Ired, that's rough, but you can make a quick jaunt to Ovir Hollow if necessary.  That's the difference that concerns me.  Is there a way to get Special Item Rings into play other than short events?

It's also an overstatement to say 10 ring tests, since only Wizard's Tests can target a Gold Ring of both alignments.  I am no expert at deck construction, but I think putting 6 (Minion+Wizard's) or 8 (Hero) Ring Tests is going to clog a deck something fierce.

In essence, I agree that Blind/Ire were made to put a handicap on FWs drawing on both sides of the spectrum.  I simply feel that they are so strong against a Ring-based deck that they overpower it.  This is only more true for a New Ringlord deck, not less.

On the positive side, the discussion's generated a few more "No" votes.

[Konrad Klar]

Don't forget about Palantir of Annuminas and its ability - returning of Sage only cards to hand. Most of test cards are Sage only. Once used Blind/Ire cannot be retrieved from discard pile.

[Sly Southerner]

It seems to me that even with this UEP Fallen Wizard Ringlord decks will still be unworkable because of the difficulty of winning with A New Ringlord. Would a UEP on A New Ringlord have more impact and be less controversial?

[Ringbearer]

TRue, ANR is just hard to do. Even with the scroll you still need to roll a 9, since the -1 applied to Fallen Wizards. MAybe ICE should have reworded the card.

[Bandobras Took]

I've posted a workable New Ringlord deck in the decks section.  It's dunked twice in five games.

This UEP concerns both A New Ringlord and Rings-for-Points decks in general.  

In the case of New Ringlord, while one can recycle the Ring Tests, it's the delay that is the key factor.  If I used Fallen Saruman's ability to pull Wizard's Test from the discard in order to test a Ring in the first place, I've just lost a turn.

In the case of Rings-for-Points, it's simply that Blind/Ire directly prevents/delays a source of MPs.  There is no similar hazard to directly prevent FWs from playing, say, Weapon MPs, Faction MPs, etc.  At best, they make them harder to get out.  A Fallen Alatar Bounty of Framsburg deck runs into trouble from Blind/Ire as far as playing items goes.  A Fallen Alatar deck running around Dragon Country can play the exact same items, and Blind/Ire will not prevent their play.

But no matter where and in what circumstances, a Rings-for-Points deck is shut down by Blind/Ire.  This is in addition to the nigh-universal Rolled Down to the Sea.  (Which also has no counterpart for other sources of MPs).  Getting Rings out is hard but workable; Blind/Ire on the tests is simply one obstacle too many.

[asphalt]

I don't think Blind/Ire are overpowered against ring tests. After all, they're removed from game after use, then your opponent will only be able to slow you down a bit, but he won't be able to endlessly stop you. Once you get your tests blinded/ired, you can recycle your test events using Smoke/Weigh, or you can alternatively pick them back in your hand from discard pile using Saruman's ability, or The Gey Hat. I think that Blind/Ire hurt much more when played against Longbottom or Tryst.

That's why I voted nay. In any case, that's just my 2 cents.

[Ringbearer]

Also, people generally dont play Blind Ire in main, and thus have to resort quite a portion of cards into sideboarding those cards in. Against a ringdeck I'd rather start using Rolled Down/Mouth/Uvatha combo to drain the rings than stopping the tests, and using Outpost to recycle Rolled Down. Much more effective than bringing in Blind/Ire.

[Bandobras Took]

I don't think Blind/Ire are overpowered against ring tests. After all, they're removed from game after use, then your opponent will only be able to slow you down a bit, but he won't be able to endlessly stop you.

That's the clincher.  If my opponent can stop (let's be conservative) 6 MPs off of two Magic Rings for two turns, that'll pretty much end the game.  Recycling won't help if by the time you draw the card, the game's already over.

[Vastor Peredhil]

In generall I believe Boboras Took to be right,

as for the same reason it was ruled than Many Sorrows Befall could not be placed on guard.

maybe "cannot be duplicated on a given turn" added to Blind/Ire would do the trick since when your prepared to test rings you might just get at least one out every time you have 2 tests in hand

mfg Nicolai