[UEP, Failed] We Have Come to Kill -- DI Only

[Bandobras Took]

Name: We Have Come to Kill -- DI Only

Status: Failed

Proposal maintainer: Bandobras Took

Categories: Balance

Errata: A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit.

Remove bolded portion.

Problem: While, according to the METW Player's Guide, Chance Meeting and We Have Come to Kill were meant to be played at any time, there is the unfortunate problem of this card completely circumventing all automatic attacks and tapping out hazards in the game.  While the Balrog gets the most use out of it, most decks use it to a varying degree.

Solution: I don't want to drag the card into unusability, but I think removing We Have Come to Kill's GI play ability would make it require some planning to use for the following reasons:

1) One cannot simply draw into the card and character and plop them down -- you actually have to leave DI free with which to do it.  This requires more planning, and means using the WHCtK gambit leaves you slightly more open to the influence bust.

2) Bringing in big-mind characters becomes problematic (this is mainly aimed at FW use, where a number of 2-MP characters come into play with this card).  You'll still be able to do it, but you'll need to do it with your wizard or with a character set up for the purpose.

3) It would solve once and for all that old argument about WHCtK without a company at a site.

Pros: People would have to earn their way past auto-attacks and hazards in many instances.

Cons: Many people don't like having to earn their way past auto-attacks.

Rationale: This card's single biggest use is in sliding by auto-attacks, but currently Strike Assignment resources may not be used for the same purpose.  This UEP makes it more difficult to use WHCtK to get by auto-attacks without making it impossible.

Discussion:

Voting started at: 11/09

Voting ends at: 12/09

[Konrad Klar]

No, because We Have Come to Kill is already limited by site type and avaliability of GI/DI, so in not so strong.
If I can play card in any time of my turn, why I cannot do it in most convenient moment? Ach. such trick requires at least two cards in a hand, We Have Come to Kill and character - less space on hand for others.

[Bandobras Took]

Unless, of course, you're the Balrog.

More generally, though, the trick is not so rare as it would seem.  For me, at least, I've seen it often enough that I thought dampening We Have Come to Kill slightly would be good.  My experience is completely subjective, admittedly.

Thanks for voting!

[Marcos]

No. because minions are a bit limited with DI... I think that the difference between a chance meeting and we have come to kill is that heroes has characters with lots of DI (wizards, elf lords, and some more) but minions do not have a 10 DI characters to bring some people under their DI, only orcs and trolls leaders have nice modifiers to bring characters under DI, so for a covert company it will get harder... well, that's my oppinion...

best regards!

[Bandobras Took]

Though minions do have access to interesting boosts in the form of Words of Power and Terror, By The Ringwraith's Word, and even Honey On the Tongue.  Incidentally, Marcos, weren't you the one who brought in Oin for an extra Wolf Ally and later Balin with We Have Come to Kill?

[Ringbearer]

NO. Same reason as marcos.

[Bandobras Took]

NO. Same reason as marcos.

Don't forget to vote; the poll currently on shows two "no"s, but there are three against so far.

[Marcos]

Though minions do have access to interesting boosts in the form of Words of Power and Terror, By The Ringwraith's Word, and even Honey On the Tongue.  Incidentally, Marcos, weren't you the one who brought in Oin for an extra Wolf Ally and later Balin with We Have Come to Kill?

yup, it was me  :roll:

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Voted no, perhaps prematurely, because I really have no clue as to what problem this UEP is ment to solve - but surely Bandobras you're going to explain me in more detail  
Personally, I think holding on to a combo of two cards is effort enough to circumvent the effect of being tapped out by the auto. Plus, it's just great fun to say "Whas tha kreepin' in them bushes Tom, another one of them pesky dwarves?" "Nah William, I reckon Bert jus arrived to save our asses."
And Big Red usually has some character with 2 free DI anyway to play one straight from sideboard.

[Leon]

I will not vote on this one. I would love to have WHCtK and ACM only during organisation phase, but I know that change would be way too radical. Most other adjustments of these cards does not make much sense to me. An option would be to state that a character needs to be tapped in order to play these cards. This would stop the cheesy use of them.

[Bandobras Took]

It's not meant so much to solve a problem as to dampen a strategy that is a bit too strong.

As I mentioned before, Marcos was able to do it to me twice in one game -- once to play Oin for and extra Wolf Ally and once to bring Balin in for 2 more character MPs.

What this does is make sure that somebody has enough free DI to bring in the character -- which means they can't take advantage of sometimes ridiculous amounts of free GI.

And you don't necessarily hold on to a combo of two cards -- you hold on to one and draw the other at any point during your turn.  Even then, holding on to two cards in order to safely get past auto attacks (where you would otherwise have to risk a -3 prowess to leave a character untapped) and get extra character MPs in addition to whatever resource you play is a more than fair trade.  Especially since that's two extra cards to draw at the end-of-turn phase.  It doesn't clog your hand at all; it speeds it up tremendously.

What this would do, actually, is force you to hold on to the two cards until you have enough free DI.  Making it require more planning and slightly more risk.

As I said, I don't want to destroy the option, I just want to dampen it slightly.  Any Minion character can get +4 DI against characters with By the Ringwraith's word.

[Marcos]

As I said, I don't want to destroy the option, I just want to dampen it slightly.  Any Minion character can get +4 DI against characters with By the Ringwraith's word.

what about balrog and/or FW?

without mention that character needs to be at the same site as RW to play By the Ringrwaith's word...

[Bandobras Took]

As I said, I don't want to destroy the option, I just want to dampen it slightly.  Any Minion character can get +4 DI against characters with By the Ringwraith's word.

what about balrog and/or FW?

There are any number of Balrog characters with large DI bonuses against the only kind of characters the Balrog can play.

And FWs have the Friend/Myrmidon cards to boost DI -- not to mention a wizard that can be in the same company with non-wizard characters.

without mention that character needs to be at the same site as RW to play By the Ringrwaith's word...

 Since it's a permanent event, he can still move around afterward.

[Marcos]

]There are any number of Balrog characters with large DI bonuses against the only kind of characters the Balrog can play.

And FWs have the Friend/Myrmidon cards to boost DI -- not to mention a wizard that can be in the same company with non-wizard characters.

balrog characters have large DI only vs balrog specific, what if i want to bring a character non-balrog specific into play?

about FW's friend/myrmidon, i think there aren't still much characters with much DI, i think only dwarves can take a lot of advantage from the DI stuff because they have modifiers vs other dwarves...

without mention that character needs to be at the same site as RW to play By the Ringrwaith's word...

 Since it's a permanent event, he can still move around afterward.

yes, but that character will have to squat until orders arrive...  :roll:

[Bandobras Took]

balrog characters have large DI only vs balrog specific, what if i want to bring a character non-balrog specific into play?

Since those are going to be at most 6 mind, and are more likely to be three minders (2 with the Balrog UEP), you'll need to perhaps include a whip as a starting minor item.

about FW's friend/myrmidon, i think there aren't still much characters with much DI, i think only dwarves can take a lot of advantage from the DI stuff because they have modifiers vs other dwarves...

Not to mention Hendolen, Galdor, and Gimli vs. Elves.  And the Elf-Stone Minor Item.  And Wormtongue vs. Edoras characters.  And Firiel/Surion against Dunedain.  And a Thrall-Ring or two . . .

the character will have to squat until Orders arrive . . .

Or return to a haven.  Satisfy a Questioner or two and Sieze some Prisoners while waiting.