[UEP, Failed] We Have Come to Kill -- DI Only

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Bandobras wrote:

It's not meant so much to solve a problem as to dampen a strategy that is a bit too strong.

I understand the annoiance when opponent plays this and avoids your hazards being really effective in slowing him down, but I don't agree with the analysis that it would be too strong. Strong decks, i.e. tourney-winning decks, don't use aCM or WhCtK alot I think, for reasons of speed/cardmanagement, because they squat and play chars easily at the site/haven with avatar, because it's better to avoid trouble at all, etc.

Obviously these cards are loved for versatility, but in my experience, included in deck mainly because it's a pain playing chars when your in the wild and/or your avatar is elsewhere. In fact, if I have WhCtK and a char in org.phase, I would not generally hold on to it until site phase, I'd rather draw cards and use the guy during movement(generally speaking of course), so this only applies to cases where you draw into either one card.

And the UEP should only be used parsimoniously for weakening strategies and making plays impossible, right? To me, this doesn't qualify as a serious problem.
Added to that, it would render it useless imho as a staple support card, if I have to boost DI first before being able to play WhCtK.

[Marcos]

balrog characters have large DI only vs balrog specific, what if i want to bring a character non-balrog specific into play?

Since those are going to be at most 6 mind, and are more likely to be three minders (2 with the Balrog UEP), you'll need to perhaps include a whip as a starting minor item.

about FW's friend/myrmidon, i think there aren't still much characters with much DI, i think only dwarves can take a lot of advantage from the DI stuff because they have modifiers vs other dwarves...

Not to mention Hendolen, Galdor, and Gimli vs. Elves.  And the Elf-Stone Minor Item.  And Wormtongue vs. Edoras characters.  And Firiel/Surion against Dunedain.  And a Thrall-Ring or two . . .

the character will have to squat until Orders arrive . . .

Or return to a haven.  Satisfy a Questioner or two and Sieze some Prisoners while waiting.

i think all your examples have a counter part:

having a whip starting minor item -> have to remove some other (maybe important) starting minor item in order to include whip and then play WHCtK...

Hendolen, Gimli, wormtongue, firial and surion -> all of them requires thrall as starting stage cards, that reduces the possibility of playing some other combination of starting stage resources

the Elf-Stone and/or a Thrall-Ring or two -> same as whip... without mention rolled down to the sea vs those mind rings...

too many changes in one deck for the possible use of just one card isn't it?  :roll:

[Bandobras Took]

i think all your examples have a counter part:

Er . . . you said there weren't options for having DI to play characters.  I'm pointing out that there are options.  People seem to be maintaining that Heroes have clear DI advantages over Minions when such is emphatically not the case.  The only real advantage Heroes have is a Wizard's 10 DI.  Other than that, both Heroes and Minions (barring the Balrog, who has his own special set of DI enhancers) have access to 4 DI characters, and minions have a few options for boosting DI a hero doesn't get.

I understand the annoiance when opponent plays this and avoids your hazards being really effective in slowing him down, but I don't agree with the analysis that it would be too strong. Strong decks, i.e. tourney-winning decks, don't use aCM or WhCtK alot I think, for reasons of speed/cardmanagement, because they squat and play chars easily at the site/haven with avatar, because it's better to avoid trouble at all, etc.  Obviously these cards are loved for versatility, but in my experience, included in deck mainly because it's a pain playing chars when your in the wild and/or your avatar is elsewhere. In fact, if I have WhCtK and a char in org.phase, I would not generally hold on to it until site phase, I'd rather draw cards and use the guy during movement(generally speaking of course), so this only applies to cases where you draw into either one card.

Which happens a lot more often than people seem to think (Marcos proved that by pulling it twice in a game after I posted this UEP).

And it makes your deck faster by allowing you to get rid of more cards before and even during your end-of-turn phase.  If you have both during the organization phase, you'll probably play them.  But holding on to one card and drawing into the other is the possibility I think should be dampened by forcing you to make the DI available.  A person can still do it, the just have to plan to do it.

I don't think UEPs are strictly for making plays easier (e.g., the River UEP, the Balrog UEP, the Flies and Spiders UEP, the Sneakin' UEP, the Army of the Dead UEP).  They're for making changes to correct perceived problems; no more, no less.

[Marcos]

I don't think UEPs are strictly for making plays easier (e.g., the River UEP, the Balrog UEP, the Flies and Spiders UEP, the Sneakin' UEP, the Army of the Dead UEP).  They're for making changes to correct perceived problems; no more, no less.

well, my point is that i don't see any problem with this card. Maybe balrog has an overpowered use of it, but that's it...

oh, i forgot:
gimli + elves -> unhappy blows

[Bandobras Took]

oh, i forgot:
gimli + elves -> unhappy blows

You also forgot Minion Arkenstone.

[Marcos]

hehehe

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Bandobras wrote:

I don't think UEPs are strictly for making plays easier (e.g., the River UEP, the Balrog UEP, the Flies and Spiders UEP, the Sneakin' UEP, the Army of the Dead UEP).  They're for making changes to correct perceived problems; no more, no less.

Yeah but everything can be perceived as a problem at a certain level, and if you use an instrument too much it gets blunt. Hence my point, reserve for really serious problems only, if not used for obvious flaws (sneakin/army/flies), or more creative/thematic plays (my favourites   ).

Which happens a lot more often than people seem to think (Marcos proved that by pulling it twice in a game after I posted this UEP).

Of course, everybody has pulled that many times I'm sure. But do these show up much in tourneywinning decks? And does this truly constitute the decisive advantage in the game? probably not. And of course these can make your deck faster, but cards that you can dump immediately make your deck even faster still    They're good, but not too good.

[Bandobras Took]

Yeah but everything can be perceived as a problem at a certain level, and if you use an instrument too much it gets blunt.

And if you don't use a muscle enough, it gets weak.  Obviously, I think this needs changing, but I'd have never known if the votes were against me or not before posting the UEP.  I'll argue the case, but whether it's accepted or rejected is fine with me.

Put another way, I can find out if people think it's a problem by putting it to a vote.

Of course, everybody has pulled that many times I'm sure. But do these show up much in tourneywinning decks? And does this truly constitute the decisive advantage in the game? probably not.

One could start by looking at the decklists in the decks forum, I suppose.  And being able to play a resource when you would otherwise be completely tapped out is a big advantage . . . a lost turn often means a lost game.

[Jambo]

Voted no.  In my opinion the problem isn't so much whether it's GI vs DI, but more when cards like these can be used, i.e. during site phase as a cheap way pass the auto attack to get items, factions, etc.  

Compare these to the abilities of Khamul or the WK or other cards enabling characters to be played like the Black Horse. There are inconsistencies.

[Bandobras Took]

Voted no.  In my opinion the problem isn't so much whether it's GI vs DI, but more when cards like these can be used, i.e. during site phase as a cheap way pass the auto attack to get items, factions, etc.  

Compare these to the abilities of Khamul or the WK or other cards enabling characters to be played like the Black Horse. There are inconsistencies.

Amen.

I'm currently arguing that one again elsewhere.  In light of anticipated rulings on Adunaphel/Indur, I'm cheerfully whittling away at that.

It seems clear this one won't pass, but I'll waiting until the official close date to say it has failed.  Thanks all for voting and discussing!

[stone troll]

No. Now and forever, amen.

[Bandobras Took]

This one was a rousing failure, and so I have updated the thread accordingly.

No. Now and forever, amen.

There are two kinds of people who are incapable of changing their minds, and I sincerely hope you're one of the former.

[Jambo]

stone trolls are pretty stubborn, I hear.