[UEP, Failed] Legacy of Smiths Rebalance

[Bandobras Took]

Name: Legacy of Smiths Rebalance

Status: Proposed

Proposal maintainer: Bandobras Took

Categories: Balance

Errata: Playable if you have more than 6 stage points.  Your Unique Items normally worth Marshalling Points are worth 2 Marshalling Points.  If you are Saruman, your Weapon/Shield/Armor/Helmet Items normally worth 3 or more Marshalling Points are worth 3 Marshalling Points.

Problem: Legacy of Smiths obsoletes the bulk of Saruman's abilities and shoulders into Alatar's by allowing Full MPs for all non-ring items.  This creates such absurdities as Aiglos/Dragon-Helm at the Deep Mines or Gandalf getting full MPs from the Thong of Fire.

Solution: Make this card Function like Gatherer of Loyalties does for Factions -- a flat rate, with bonuses for different Wizards.

Pros: This sharply rebalances Fallen Wizards by eliminating a source of Full MPs for them all while giving Saruman an indirect boost and not weakening Alatar at all, who will become the only FW capable of getting Full MPs from Battle Gear.

Cons: None, unless you think Aiglos/Dragon Helm is an example of great play, Or that Gandalf should get Full MPs from wielding the Minion Iron Crown.

Rationale: The only other stage resource that enables Full MPs is Merrier World, but even then, you can't force your opponent to attack you with Creatures unless you're Alatar anyway.  With Allies, Factions, and characters being generally restricted in MP totals, Legacy should follow suit.  Blind to All Else should not, since Rings-for-Points is awkward enough anyway.

Discussion: An extended analysis of FW MP sources can be found here.

Voting started at: 03/19/2009

Voting ends at: Roughly 04/19/2009

[Vastor Peredhil]

Hi all,

as always nice analysis by b-took, but in case of this UEP I rather see the need of a discussion, not for the reason in this topic, but since all UEPs are accepted in dreamcard format/enviroment this UEP would have a bigger effect at least for me (so do elf-lords go along with Saruman or rather with Gandalf)

Also with all UEPs for Fallen-Saruman I believe he is managable, even without this UEP.

Of course Legacy is unthematic if it comes to gandalf & Radagast decks, but hey there are less perfect things in excistance within the ICE legacy

mfg Nicolai

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I honestly don't get it. Why weaken the other FW's vis a vis other alignments because Saruman has been done injustice?

If you maintain that Legacy is not thematic, I'm with you, but given the parsimoneous stance towards UEP that is not enough.
You think FW's are too strong as an alignment, playing Helm/Aiglos at Deep Mines? do something about that then. Because, there's also Arkenstone, Necklace, Emerald, Palantiri, you want to discourage all the other FW's out of playing these?

other points: you made it not just like Gatherer, but also like Give Welcome, because unique 1 MP items will be worth 2 mp's now.
also, Gatherer requires only 4 SP and gives only 3, so if you lower the reward, you should also lower the requirements and punishment.

[Bandobras Took]

It doesn't weaken them too terribly.

The only 1 MP unique items that a FW can play are Hero Red Book and Book of Mazarbul.  The bulk of unique items stay exactly where they are.

You ask why weaken them?

Alatar has not been made any weaker.
Saruman has not been made any weaker.

The other three have enough strengths that limiting their item play would only keep them from going over the top, not from being competitive.

This card addresses several questions of overall balance, not just a single one, regarding Fallen Wizards.  Yes, I do want to discourage other Fallen Wizards from being able to get Full MPs off an item, just as, say, Saruman is discouraged from getting full MPs off of factions.  People will still include an item if it's useful enough/a good source of Item MPs, but it won't be too good a source.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I meant weaker in a general sense, not just in a competitive sense, if you deny a FW a source of mp's he will get weaker vs. other alignments no matter how you turn the tables. Moreover, I never heard anyone say Legacy made FW decks strong/overpowered in a competitive sense, not even with Aiglos/Dragon helm, so taking away a source of mp's would definitely matter.

nb. how would Alatar not be weakened if he gets only 2 mps from non battle-gear/non rings? this is assuming he never plays anything else.

nb. no FW can get full mp's for Itangast Roused, just some wizards get some bonus for (some) factions, and those are often easier to get than items, and I have no reason to believe ICE did not make a conscious decission here, since they made Gatherer Alatar/Pallando specific, Embassy for Gandalf, Warders for Alatar and gave Rada an ability. Even though some cards are very sloppy/standard and you are inclined to believe they are just there to fill the set (Join the hunt/Orome's Warders? terrible), I think Legacy was meant to be overall enhancer, also because of SP requirement/yield, heck even the quote leads there (which btw. must be the worst Kuduk Lore ever, well second to Eyes of Mandos).

In sum, I really don't understand what issue of balance is at stake, other than Saruman receiving the short end factionwise and/or not benefitting as much from his innate item ability. If it were for FW games only...but now I have to vote no.

[Bandobras Took]

I meant weaker in a general sense, not just in a competitive sense, if you deny a FW a source of mp's he will get weaker vs. other alignments no matter how you turn the tables. Moreover, I never heard anyone say Legacy made FW decks strong/overpowered in a competitive sense, not even with Aiglos/Dragon helm, so taking away a source of mp's would definitely matter.

This I don't understand.  If they're not weaker in a competitive sense, how then are they weaker?  The source of MPs isn't denied at all, simply curtailed.  They can also still get full MPs from Ring Items through Blind to All Else.  So they aren't denied Item MPs at all.

You've never heard anyone say Aiglos/Dragon-helm is cheeze?

nb. how would Alatar not be weakened if he gets only 2 mps from non battle-gear/non rings? this is assuming he never plays anything else.

Because if he wants to get lots of item MPs he has a full option for it.

nb. no FW can get full mp's for Itangast Roused, just some wizards get some bonus for (some) factions, and those are often easier to get than items, and I have no reason to believe ICE did not make a conscious decision here

I also believe they made a conscious decision, and I believe it to be the wrong one.  What's so bad about all FWs being able to get full MPs from some items and not being able to get full MPs from all items?  Most FWs can get full MPs from some factions, and all can get better MPs from quite a few, and most aren't able to get full MPs from all of them.

In sum, I really don't understand what issue of balance is at stake, other than Saruman receiving the short end factionwise and/or not benefitting as much from his innate item ability.

That's the balance issue in a nutshell.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

read carefully Bandobras, when I say not just competitive play, I obviously mean weakened for both competitive and general play. Only, you seem to think it doesn't matter for their competitive strenght, which I won't necessarily dispute, but it is weakening them vs. other alignments no matter how you look at it, and if the Saruman faction issue and Legacy 'anomaly' (compared to Gatherer) is all there is involved here balance-wise, I think it's not worth it, it's not much of a disturbed balance imho.

Again, I said Aiglos/Helm is semi-cheez, but it's not overpowered cheez. And if it is/were, then there might be other ways to fix it without discouraging FW's out of playing Emerald/Necklace/Palantiri/Iron Crown etc...

So, the downsides are not big but also not needed, and necessity is just too low here, even if thematically more consistent, we'd have a very long list of UEP's, and we've decided that was not the intention of the project.

[Vastor Peredhil]

Sry,

after the discussion I made up my mind to vote no, proberbly the 1st time ever for me to vote no on a serious UEP, but fallen Saruman can be fixed else where I guess , he already is better in UEP games (and he rocks in DC games)

Also UEPs in generel got less attention since the introduction of Virtuals & Dreamcards on GCCG, even though dream cards allows/has all accepted UEPs in full effect, but people tend not to know/care for this rule, even though it is among the 1st DC-rules in the rules file

[Bandobras Took]

read carefully Bandobras, when I say not just competitive play, I obviously mean weakened for both competitive and general play.

That would explain why I didn't understand.  I was reading the post on my break at work and missed that "just."  Changes the whole meaning of the sentence.